Boeing following Mac Doug

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AeroER

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Oct 6, 2021
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301
Pure and simple.
I chuckled about the comment about flying in Airbus airliners.

You should poll the St. Louis strength guys that worked on 747-8, you won't find much love or desire to fly those.
 

gtae07

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Dec 13, 2012
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Location
Savannah, Georgia
Y'all DO know what MBA stands for?

Ironically, getting an MBA was what convinced me that (a) I did not want to go into management, and (b) the way companies are evaluated on financial performance is f'ed up.
Case in point: Our "capstone" assignment was running a business simulation. Our company was run on what we considered sound principles--we paid off our starting debt, had cash on hand, invested in R&D, and returned handsome dividends to our shareholders. We got slammed on our "Return on Assets" figure. I asked the prof (a former A-10 guy, incidentally), "what gives?" "Well, you don't have any debt but you have a lot of fixed assets and cash on hand." "So what are we supposed to do, borrow a bunch of money, make a huge payout to the shareholders, buy back shares, and wind up sitting in the exact same place we are now, but with a buttload of debt?" "Yeah, something like that. I know it's dumb but that's what the market wants"

But very true for projects like the 787...there's a LOT of subcontracting to overseas companies, including Japan, Italy, Korea, Germany, the United Kingdom, Sweden, and France. Something like 45 companies.

What was funny was that, in said MBA class, one of our case studies was the 787 program. Of course, the case study material had been written just before the rollout fiasco, whereas we were taking the class right about the time they were getting TC.
Case study basically said Boeing was trying to improve its Return on Assets with all the outsourcing risk-sharing, and pumped up the whole idea. I demolished that case study in a class presentation.
And funnily enough... both Boeing and my employer went through a few rounds of insourcing/"vertically-integrating" things that they used to do themselves long ago. Turns out supplier management is a whole lot harder and a whole lot more trouble than buying things on Amazon and expecting them to show up the way you want them.

I used to ask all the new engineers if they had ever drilled into a finger. The results were quite predictable.
Does it count if Dad was the one holding the drill and I was just backing it up? He put a #30 right into my thumb while drilling fuselage skins to longerons on his RV-6 (he found the one hole in the wooden backup block). But I got an hour in Delta's MD-90 sim as consolation :cool:
 

Riggerrob

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Sep 9, 2014
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2,662
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Canada
This notion of paying out excess stock-holder dividends is a generational thing. Consider how most Baby Boomers (born 1946 to 1964) are now (57 to 80 years old) retiring. They want to suck all the dollars out of their retirement funds to finance a comfortable retirement.
 
Joined
Aug 7, 2019
Messages
276
Location
Harleysville, PA
Y'all DO know what MBA stands for? "Mighty Bad Attitude" "Mediocre But Arrogant"
"More Bad Advice", "Moron by Acclamation", etc, etc. I worked for Exxon for awhile, the bean counters and the "More Bucks Annually" idiots ran the place and ruined the affiliate I used to work for.

Derswede
and lets not forget the contribution of the enormous stack of "Piled Higher and Deeper"s that are the very life blood of Boeing. Some of them worth their money but most I worked for could not breathe on their own. Completely educated beyond utility. Very bright but knew nothing about real world limitations. Many, many blind tunnels! Cant say how many times I heard them defended by "But they look really good on the proposals" (many of which we did not get!)
 

PMD

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Apr 11, 2015
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Martensville SK
Remember the 1% uprising? Even Joe Blow knew there was something wrong, but none of them seemed to realize it was the shift in the economy from creating wealth as a means of growth to re-distributing wealth and growing through nothing but inflation. Of course, how could they be held accountable for not realizing that when very few economists and virtually NO politicians seem to understand or give a darn.

We have been going down this road for decades - starting from the time where the lessons learned in 1929 were pretty much forgotten. The real green flag, though, was repealing the Glas-Steagal Act.
 

robertbrown

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Apr 23, 2012
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30
Location
Marietta, GA/USA
Did that too. Had engineers in India and Romania working for me. Nothing against them, but it is hard to check and assign/manage work for more than 3-4 while still doing other tasks. You still have issues like training and retention.
Subcontracting out engineering and/or manufacturing can work well but not when the only consideration is "Who's the low bidder?" Rohr used to be Lockheed's go to for nacelles; a good argument could be made that they were better quality than doing the work in house. My limited experience with subcontractors was good but I was on small mod programs where Engineering was allowed to pick the subcontractors. I've heard lots of complaints about outsourcing manufacturing where you get a "just-in-time" part that doesn't fit. One contractor bitterly complained that he had made a part for years with no quality problems, then lost the contract when he was underbid by pennies per part. Meaningful quality metrics are hard to come up; it's easier to make up useless metrics that management can show they met and collect their bonus.
 

PiperCruisin

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Jan 17, 2017
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416
Location
Idaho
I've heard lots of complaints about outsourcing manufacturing where you get a "just-in-time" part that doesn't fit. One contractor bitterly complained that he had made a part for years with no quality problems, then lost the contract when he was underbid by pennies per part. Meaningful quality metrics are hard to come up; it's easier to make up useless metrics that management can show they met and collect their bonus.
Yes, if you have a QA problem and it was made in another country then the impact can be huge. PPAP is supposed to help with that. I can't say I've seen it work well especially if Incoming is not checking critical functional dimensions.
 
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AeroER

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Oct 6, 2021
Messages
301
A major error is awarding gold supplier status to foreign suppliers, then never withdrawing the rating. Especially the Israelis, and any supplier of composite assemblies.
 

PMD

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Apr 11, 2015
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969
Location
Martensville SK
BTW: We watched "Downfall, the Case Against Boeing" on Netflix last night. Sadly, to make the producer's point they downplayed the GENUINE problem if developing nations granting pilot's licenses and ratings based on privilege vs. merit and they definitely left the FAA off the hook - that is IMHO where the real breakdown occurred as the drift into this mess started long ago and should have been caught by regulators long ago. Still worth watching if you want to take in just one narrow view of the problem(s).

IMHO what is REALLY needed is for DOJ to hire some Italian judges to slam a bunch of the Wall Street a-holes responsible for Boeing (and many other companies) in jail - not just bailing them out for trillions because they are "too big to fail".

Considering that Boeing is key to both the economy and defense, the whole thing should be taken on as a national pilot project to fix a much deeper problem.
 
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