Boeing - Design Issues...

Discussion in 'Rules and Regulations / Flight Safety / Better Pil' started by TXFlyGuy, Apr 11, 2019.

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  1. May 2, 2019 #101

    BJC

    BJC

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    I am assuming that you are referring to the Boeing 737 MAX. [edit. See the info in the later post by 12notes about the NG. The following questions apply to which ever aircraft you are referring to. - BJC] Since you are accusing Boeing of building the airplane not in compliance with the Type Certificate, it would be appropriate for you to provide specifics.
    Now you are asserting that the FAA illegally issued the Type Certificate for the 737 MAX. Again, specifics would be appropriate.


    BJC
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
  2. May 2, 2019 #102

    BBerson

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    Certification has never been a guarantee of best outcome. In some cases flawed arbitrary certification impedes best outcome. (I don't know if this happened)
    Certification only involves inspections to approved standards. When the FAA or surrogate DAR inspects a new Homebuilt they do not consider every possible outcome. They only use a limited arbitrary checklist. The real burden for good outcome is on the manufacturer (be it Boeing or an amateur builder) and the operator.
     
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  3. May 2, 2019 #103

    12notes

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    The 737 NG refers to the 737-600, -700, -800, and -900 models. 737MAX is not part of the 737 NG Series.
     
  4. May 2, 2019 #104

    BJC

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    Thank you. I had an incorrect understanding.


    BJC
     
  5. May 2, 2019 #105

    12notes

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    In 2011 American Airlines announced a purchase order of their first ever Airbus planes, 130 A320s and 130 A320neos, along with 100 737s and 100 re-engined 737s. They did this before Boeing had decided to build the 737 MAX. This forced Boeing to either build it, or start with a new design which would take many years and most likely have converted the 100 re-engined 737 sales into A320neo sales.

    Really good video explaining this:


    For those too impatient to watch a 10 minute video, here's the section of the video about the order:
     
  6. May 2, 2019 #106

    davidb

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    I should have said “well trained” pilots. The point I intended to develop is that there should be more emphasis on quality training to enhance safety. The media tends to focus on what went wrong with the airplane with no mention of how the pilots could have dealt with the problem. We don’t like to hear “pilot error” because we know that is unjust given the circumstances. What pilot error really is is a training shortfall.

    The AF 447 and these two Max tragedies would not have happened had the pilots known what to do. But, we can’t expect them to do the right things if they haven’t been intensively trained. As aircraft get more complex and closer to autonomous, one can argue that less training is needed and that is actually where we are now. We have pilots who are ill equipped to handle situations where everything isn’t working like it’s supposed to work.

    IMO, we need more training, much more. The rightseaters of the three tragedies above had zero chance of doing the right things given their training and experience level. Imagine if those same people had one hour of training in the simulator dealing with what they faced beforehand. Obviously, it is no small task to train for every imaginable problem but increasing training threefold is a good start.

    I, like many airline pilots have a military background where the training footprint is at least threefold of what we see in the civilian sector. Obviously, economics is the hurdle for achieving an equivalent level of training in the civilian sector.

    So, while we criticize aircraft manufacturers for their efforts to make an economical aircraft, perhaps we should also criticize efforts to make an economical pilot.
     
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  7. May 2, 2019 #107

    12notes

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    My thoughts are that if you wait until you're pulling back on the yoke with 100 lbs of force in level flight before you try to manually adjust the trim, you weren't trained enough to fly an ultralight, let alone an airliner.

    The co-pilot in Ethiopia had less than half the time I do, and I'm not 1/3 of the way to eligible to fly and airliner in the US. And I'm just flying for fun, and have only had my license for a little over 3 years.

    From the Ethiopia Pilot Academy website:
    "Our training program guides students seamlessly from ab-initio training to airliner type rating, using simulation designed for multi-crew training."

    A private pilot certificate is a license to learn in the US, it's a ticket to the type rating simulator training there. They're given enough time to be taught how to fly, but no time to actually learn how to fly.
     
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  8. May 3, 2019 #108

    TXFlyGuy

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    The flight school here in Denton, Texas (KDTO), is one of the busiest in the country. China Airlines hires new college graduates off the street, and sends them here to get their ratings. They have zero aviation background.

    They go through private, commercial, instrument, and multi-engine pretty quick. As soon as they complete the course, they go to the right seat of a Beach King Air for about 5 hours.

    Their next position is A-330 First Officer.

    China Air even bought out an old motel, and converted it into a dormitory for their new hire pilots.

    There are a handful of airlines that I will not set foot on, and China Airlines is one of them.
     
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  9. May 3, 2019 #109

    Swampyankee

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    One issue regarding training is that Boeing added MCAS specifically so no new training for the 737max was required. Training pilots for MCAS would contradict that. Obviously, for a fleet that only operates the 737max, this would not be an issue, but if it also operates later 737 versions without MCAS, it would be, as the non-MCAS 737 pilots couldn’t be used in some of the ostensibly interchangeable 737s (there is likely a separate rating for the early P&WAC-engined 737s, as Pratt uses EPR, but GE and CFM use N1)
     
  10. May 3, 2019 #110

    BBerson

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    I think the plot by Boeing, the airlines and perhaps the FAA to avoid the Type rating might have been the seed that started the disaster.
    Sometimes safety rules are so burdensome that folks take an alternate route. Like if a rule requires 6 air bags, some will just keep driving an old car with no airbags instead of buying a car with one airbag like they wanted.
    An FAA inspector came into my hangar once and was snooping around to find something. She spotted an uncertified shoulder harness in an old Taylorcraft and gave two options: get them STC'd or remove them. The owner chose to remove them.
    I would have offered a third option if I was her, do a 337 one time inspection and approve them on the spot.
     
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  11. May 3, 2019 #111

    Pops

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    Always need to have a very small obvious thing for them to find so they will feel like they done something and feel good about themselves.
     
  12. May 3, 2019 #112

    davidb

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    True. It’s the economics of training. There will always be the push to do more with less. Hard to sell aircraft that require more training dollars. In a broader sense, it’s hard for any airline to voluntarily increase training because that puts them at an economic disadvantage. Any increase in training costs would have to be globally mandated. Don’t hold your breath.

    The path of least resistance is to place all blame on Boeing for building an airplane that couldn’t be flown with minimally trained pilots. Putting all the focus on MCAS effectively masks the root problem. The industry needs to turn around the trend towards less quality in the cockpit. We are only as good as our training and experience allows.
     
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  13. May 3, 2019 #113

    Swampyankee

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    Boeing, however, made the deliberate decision not to include training for MCAS in their marketing; the FAA screwed up in not calling Boeing out on that decision. The airlines and Boeing exist to make money; the regulatory agencies are there to keep them from killing people.
     
  14. May 3, 2019 #114

    TXFlyGuy

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    The airlines, the FAA, and the manufacturers are in bed with each other. A bit of an incestuous relationship.
     
  15. May 4, 2019 #115

    davidb

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    It’s been nearly half a century since I remember the schoolhouse debates of the dual role of the FAA. Seems back then they were supposed to promote aviation safety AND promote aviation prosperity. Not sure if that is still their charge.

    We don’t know if USA operators could have avoided these tragedies. The landscape is certainly different in other parts of the world but the FAA’s jurisdiction stops at the border. The Max may be a safe product in the USA but it’s now obvious it wasn’t a safe product in other realms.

    There was obvious flaws with the Max. Shame on Boeing. But, there is validity to the arguments that the known procedures, if followed, would have prevented the tragedies. We shouldn’t hold Boeing and/or the FAA solely responsible for these tragedies. We don’t hold Boeing responsible when a perfectly good Boeing airplane crashes because the crew didn’t do things right.
     
  16. May 4, 2019 #116

    BJC

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    The “promote aviation” mission of the FAA was deleted but congress in one of the reauthorization bills. I don’t recall the year that they did that, but it has been a long time.


    BJC
     
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  17. May 11, 2019 #117

    Doggzilla

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    Are those the new geared turbines? If so it wouldn't surprise me. Gearing has always been a huge issue, which is why everyone on here tends to avoid it like the plague. Countless failures.
     
  18. May 11, 2019 #118

    Voidhawk9

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    No.
     
  19. May 11, 2019 #119

    Doggzilla

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    I see some unsourced quotes about it using counter rotating turbine sections but not sure if that's true. That doesn't necessarily require gearing though if it's alternated between inner and outer shafts.

    Regardless, further reading shows it's not a gearing issue and it's a material issue with two different stages having two different problems with wear.
     
  20. May 11, 2019 #120

    TXFlyGuy

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    They fly B-777's from Auckland to Houston non-stop, without any issue. Makes you wonder why they even bothered with the Dreamliner?

    United has the world's longest non-stop route, IAH-SYD. B-787. However, that flight is most often weight restricted as it can't make it with a full fuel load, and a full passenger load.
     

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