Boeing - Design Issues...

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AdrianS

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Boeing just got caught mocking Lion Air when they asked for proper simulator training before the crash.

Not just mocking them, but being vulgar and insulting them too.

***Language warning.***

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-14/lion-air-idiots-sought-more-max-training-boeing-thwarted-it
There have been a number of people blaming "poorly trained foreign pilots" for the 737 crashes - now we find that Boeing was actively and energetically discouraging Lion from sim training their pilots on the Max!
 

BJC

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There have been a number of people blaming "poorly trained foreign pilots" for the 737 crashes - now we find that Boeing was actively and energetically discouraging Lion from sim training their pilots on the Max!
Guilty as charged.

But, regardless of whether it was Lion Air, Boeing, or the United Nations at fault, the fact that the pilots were not adequately skilled remains.

This whole mess is a fiasco for everyone operating the 737 MAX, and a windfall for others.


BJC
 

plncraze

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I might be repeating myself and if so I'm sorry but I work with a former Boeing employee who says Boeing does not like doing commercial and only wants to do government work because there is more money there. Monopolies are dangerous and it's frustrating to see Boeing the domestic monopoly screw up and make Airbus the global monopoly.
 

Speedboat100

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I might be repeating myself and if so I'm sorry but I work with a former Boeing employee who says Boeing does not like doing commercial and only wants to do government work because there is more money there. Monopolies are dangerous and it's frustrating to see Boeing the domestic monopoly screw up and make Airbus the global monopoly.

It only needs a superb revolutional new design to bring Boeing back to glory.
 

PMD

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It only needs a superb revolutional new design to bring Boeing back to glory.
The gestation period for a new design is far too long to make any difference. The problem is to save Boeing's ass the FAA will have to restore certification of the Max as a 737, and a Max is NOT really able to be certified under the same TC (IMHO, of course).

The idea that Boeing could ever compete in civil aviation as an independent company spun off from the military side is ludicrous. The standard way of propping up Boeing/Douglas to match the state support of Airbus is by pouring money into the military side. This will become ever more critical as China develops its civil (and military) aviation design and manufacturing capacity.

The FAA is equally to blame for this situation, but my fear is that their response will be to heap MORE new rules and regs onto a certification process that is already handicapping US industry.
 

bmcj

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I might be repeating myself and if so I'm sorry but I work with a former Boeing employee who says Boeing does not like doing commercial and only wants to do government work because there is more money there. Monopolies are dangerous and it's frustrating to see Boeing the domestic monopoly screw up and make Airbus the global monopoly.
That’s hard to believe given that Boeing has done so well and done such a good job in the civilian world so far, and has not had many recent wins for new military design contracts. Sure, the money (and relative lack of regulation) is definitely on the military side, that is why they bought McDonnell-Douglas, but to win military contracts in this country, you have to beat out some very capable competition. On the passenger carriage side, Boeing pretty well had the American market tied up.
 

Doggzilla

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Last year alone it received tens of billions of dollars in government contracts.

The airline side of the business has become so incompetent that the 787 is not projected to ever make a profit on its development costs.

Boeing definitely relies on government contracts for the majority of its profits.
 

Speedboat100

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The gestation period for a new design is far too long to make any difference. The problem is to save Boeing's ass the FAA will have to restore certification of the Max as a 737, and a Max is NOT really able to be certified under the same TC (IMHO, of course).

The idea that Boeing could ever compete in civil aviation as an independent company spun off from the military side is ludicrous. The standard way of propping up Boeing/Douglas to match the state support of Airbus is by pouring money into the military side. This will become ever more critical as China develops its civil (and military) aviation design and manufacturing capacity.

The FAA is equally to blame for this situation, but my fear is that their response will be to heap MORE new rules and regs onto a certification process that is already handicapping US industry.

The Mustang P-51 was created in 90 days.
 

Himat

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The gestation period for a new design is far too long to make any difference. The problem is to save Boeing's ass the FAA will have to restore certification of the Max as a 737, and a Max is NOT really able to be certified under the same TC (IMHO, of course).
Or more precise, the requirement that pilot training should be equal for all 737 variants. If the plane (737 Max) require the pilots to have an additional type rating one of the selling points are gone.
 
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jedi

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Or more precise, the requirement that pilot training should be equal for all 737 variants. If the plane (737 Max) require the pilots to have an additional type rating one of the selling points are gone.
Additional training and additional type rating are not the same thing. I do not think anyone would propose an additional type rating for the max.
 

Himat

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It only needs a superb revolutional new design to bring Boeing back to glory.
That can be flown by a pilot with a 737 type rating.;)

And the plane probably better not look to different than todays passenger airplanes, buyers and passengers are conservative. If not, it does not just have to be economical better than the alternatives to operate, but significant better to operate.
 

Doggzilla

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They are already working on a 797, and the competition is working on hybrid electric turboprops to compete with the short haul market the 737 currently dominates.

Turboprops are already nearly half the operating cost per seat mile, so companies who usually shun them are starting to take notice.
 

Topaz

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The only reason everyone in aviation who hasn't said this "plane was design by clowns" is that very rarely is it expressed so mildly.
...I think they are toast a big passenger aircraft maker and deservedly so. They have proven time and again they can not be trusted and no one trusts the FAA anymore either....
What's remarkable is that anyone thinks any of this is any different from any other time in history. This is hardly the first time a new Boeing/Airbus/[insert manufacturer here] design has had major, even fatal, issues on launch or in early service. The "our product was designed by clowns" sentiment was an old cliché to amphorae makers sitting around the kiln in ancient Greece. The only difference is that what used to be expressed sotto voce in the lunchroom or around the water cooler is now typed out on e-mail and Slack, and preserved for the media to see forever when someone feels like leaking it.

I think it might be about time to buy Boeing stock.
Indeed.
 

Doggzilla

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Im fairly certain its not hit bottom yet. And they have been having trouble meeting their military deliveries as well because they keep being turned away for violating military policy.

If they start losing customers then its definitely going to drop more.
The Mustang P-51 was created in 90 days.
Well, the engineers asked to take initiative and the British allowed them.

A lot of the time things fail not because they are impossible, but because the engineers with initiative are held back. The MAX is the perfect example. They actually had people willing to do the right thing and do it well, but they were harassed and held back.
 

Doggzilla

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Fix the wiring and computer problems and provide proper training.

Multiple engineers, production crew, and test pilots have come out stating that they tried to do the right thing but were bullied or reassigned by management who thought safety was optional.
 

Speedboat100

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That can be flown by a pilot with a 737 type rating.;)

And the plane probably better not look to different than todays passenger airplanes, buyers and passengers are conservative. If not, it does not just have to be economical better than the alternatives to operate, but significant better to operate.

This makes it all more interesting.

The new plane could take a stance into the "climate*****e" and thus be braking the ground and set new operating procedured and routes etc.

Very few seems to realize the potential of this situation.
 
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Speedboat100

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Only needed a new wing, new engine, and fuse redesign after that.

Even a year is short period if you go to do something new. I have been working on my new wind turbine now for 6 years.

I had to learn to do the electronics too....and craft at least 4 new tools. Three PoC/prototypes and testing them in secrecy.

One man factory is a challenge as I just broke my knee a week ago while throwing frisbees on a frozen ground.
 
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