Boeing - Design Issues...

HomeBuiltAirplanes.com

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes.com:

Swampyankee

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2015
Messages
1,422
Location
Earth USA East Coast
By “large corporations will ...” do you mean some or all? If you mean ll, then you will need to show me some solid data.

Sorry that you work for such a poorly managed corporation. Sounds like you should find a new employer.


BJC

Edit: If enough people accept working for such poor management, it likely will continue.
One needs a paycheck; many employers, especially large ones are similar in how they manage workers who don't toe the corporate line. They are also far from democratic; indeed most large companies are, at best, oligarchies with elements of meritocracy; the worst could give North Korea a run for the money in treatment of their workers, with only ever-weakening labor and health and safety laws slowing the race to helot-dom for workers.

Sometimes I think companies move to places like China not just for cheap labor, but because the government is far closer to their ideal government than Western democracy.
 

BJC

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Messages
11,252
Location
97FL, Florida, USA
They are also far from democratic
Why should a corporation be run as a democracy?

Do you want decisions about how you manage your assets to be voted on by the people that you interact with? To make this HBA related, do you expect Vans to resolve a design issue on a new STOL kitplane being developed by allowing the employees to vote? Does the accountant’s vote carry the same weight as the shipping clerks or the engineers?

Democracy works well for making rules of behavior among a well educated society, but failed miserably at allocating resources.


BJC
 

Himat

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 5, 2011
Messages
2,868
Location
Norway
Why should a corporation be run as a democracy?

Do you want decisions about how you manage your assets to be voted on by the people that you interact with? To make this HBA related, do you expect Vans to resolve a design issue on a new STOL kitplane being developed by allowing the employees to vote? Does the accountant’s vote carry the same weight as the shipping clerks or the engineers?

Democracy works well for making rules of behavior among a well educated society, but failed miserably at allocating resources.


BJC
Workers are stakeholders in a company, without the company they are out of work. That may make workers have a more long-term view than management and shareholders that can loot a company and run with the cash. If skilled and educated the workers may have some pride in their work too, not letting substandard work past. Democracy in a corporation may be more about management listening when employees point out bad practice, design or decisions than voting on single decisions.

In some cases, it now looks like workers on all levels adapt to poor management with being equal cynical and short sighted. Do as told by management, keep changing employer and move on before accountability time.
 

BJC

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Messages
11,252
Location
97FL, Florida, USA
Workers are stakeholders in a company, without the company they are out of work.
And without workers, so is the company, except in cases, like Boeing, where government intervention poisons, for whatever supposed reason (national defense), free capitalistic enterprise. Employees who choose to act in unison have tremendous power in a free-of-government-intervention economy.
That may make workers have a more long-term view than management and shareholders that can loot a company and run with the cash.
As a company owner, one should be free to “loot the company and run with the cash.”
If skilled and educated the workers may have some pride in their work too, not letting substandard work past.
Skilled and educated workers who have pride in their work are a key part of any company’s success, large or small. They should be treated with respect and appropriately compensated. In the absence of governmental intervention, the good companies do those things, and the others go out of business to be replaced by better managed companies.
Democracy in a corporation may be more about management listening when employees point out bad practice, design or decisions than voting on single decisions.
That is not a description of a democracy; it is a description of a management that is effective.
In some cases, it now looks like workers on all levels adapt to poor management with being equal cynical and short sighted. Do as told by management, keep changing employer and move on before accountability time.
Unfortunately, continuing government intervention in our economy is perpetuating that situation.


BJC
 

Swampyankee

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2015
Messages
1,422
Location
Earth USA East Coast
Why should a corporation be run as a democracy?

Do you want decisions about how you manage your assets to be voted on by the people that you interact with? To make this HBA related, do you expect Vans to resolve a design issue on a new STOL kitplane being developed by allowing the employees to vote? Does the accountant’s vote carry the same weight as the shipping clerks or the engineers?

Democracy works well for making rules of behavior among a well educated society, but failed miserably at allocating resources.


BJC
Why should they not? Governments deal with far greater resources, and democratic governments tend to allocate resources better than non-democratic ones, which tend to allocate resources to the governing class.
 

BJC

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Messages
11,252
Location
97FL, Florida, USA
Why should they not? Governments deal with far greater resources, and democratic governments tend to allocate resources better than non-democratic ones, which tend to allocate resources to the governing class.
Because governments should not allocate resources; governments should ensure, with minimal rules, equal opportunity for all citizens. History shows that once governments begin to allocate resources (usually confiscated) they become unable to contain themselves, especially when retaining power becomes all-important to professional politicians who proceed to buy votes from non-producers.

Should the government in the USA take on the role of allocating quarter-sawn spar quality Sitka Spruce? Should a politician or a bureaucrat decide that the spar quality spruce should be used for pianos rather than homebuilt airplanes? Who really needs a private airplane, anyway, much less a dangerous one that some rich person built in his garage?


BJC
 
Last edited:

PMD

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2015
Messages
242
Location
Martensville SK
And without workers, so is the company, except in cases, like Boeing, where government intervention poisons, for whatever supposed reason (national defense), free capitalistic enterprise.

As a company owner, one should be free to “loot the company and run with the cash.”

BJC
Finance-owned corporations are NOT "free capitalistic enterprise", but Casino Capitalist board pieces in games aimed at enriching their financial institutional owners. They are run by management put in place by financiers, and while they are in such a position, rob the company with ridiculous compensation and moreso legitimate shareholders by dilluting the living crap out of them with stock option plans. Their priority is to run things to suit the M&A plans of their masters, not as entrepreneurial business with pride in a product or service that is meant to be their life's work and legacy.
 

Mad MAC

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2004
Messages
627
Location
Hamilton New Zealand
BJC, your statement is based on assuming that business unlike governments are rational organizations, yet the humans in both organizations are drawn from the same talent pool and these persons are broadly driven by the same physic profile which suggests both are inclined to go rouge by the same margin without sufficient oversight.
 

BJC

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Messages
11,252
Location
97FL, Florida, USA
We have strayed too far from the rules of HBA with this discussion. Let’s get together at Beer Venture in Oshkosh and, surrounded by attractive servers, continue this over a beer or three. Andy will buy the first round.


BJC

PS Alternatively, we could discuss it after coffee at Homebuilt Headquarters.
 

Swampyankee

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2015
Messages
1,422
Location
Earth USA East Coast
Because governments should not allocate resources; governments should ensure, with minimal rules, equal opportunity for all citizens. History shows that once governments begin to allocate resources (usually confiscated) they become unable to contain themselves, especially when retaining power becomes all-important to professional politicians who proceed to buy votes from non-producers.

Should the government in the USA take on the role of allocating quarter-sawn spar quality Sitka Spruce? Should a politician or a bureaucrat decide that the spar quality spruce should be used for pianos rather than homebuilt airplanes? Who really needs a private airplane, anyway, much less a dangerous one that some rich person built in his garage?


BJC
In other words they act like corporations?

Resources allocated by governments include physical infrastructure, the building of which has been a government responsibility throughout history, education, commons, like those town greens (which were shared pasture), security resources, etc


Corporations, obviously should exist for the benefit of shareholders but many seem to be operated for the benefit of their executives.
 

TFF

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2010
Messages
13,054
Location
Memphis, TN
Actually corporations should exist for the benefit of their customers. Shareholders should just be riding the coattails. Unluckily, somehow that has been switched. If executives were held from being stockholders, their answers would be different.
 

PMD

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2015
Messages
242
Location
Martensville SK
Why should a corporation be run as a democracy?

Do you want decisions about how you manage your assets to be voted on by the people that you interact with? To make this HBA related, do you expect Vans to resolve a design issue on a new STOL kitplane being developed by allowing the employees to vote? Does the accountant’s vote carry the same weight as the shipping clerks or the engineers?

Democracy works well for making rules of behavior among a well educated society, but failed miserably at allocating resources.


BJC
I will make this comment and drop the issue: but this is exactly how and why hundred million dollar airplanes built in facilities with huge engineering talent come falling out of the sky - nobody is talking about the real cause of the problem (although SOME of it will definitely hit the courts and be dealt with).
 

BJC

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Messages
11,252
Location
97FL, Florida, USA
Delta Air Lines is going to “democratize” private aviation:
"This groundbreaking partnership will democratize private aviation — making the convenience of private jet travel accessible to more consumers," Delta CEO Ed Bastian said in a statement. He added that the agreement "is the latest step in Delta's ongoing effort to build partnerships that extend Delta's brand beyond its core business."
story here https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEN1MOJKQ_RelmS3MCzddIcMqGQgEKhAIACoHCAow2Nb3CjDivdcCMJ_d7gU?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:en


BJC
 

plncraze

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
May 11, 2006
Messages
1,825
They probably mean ( I didn't read the article) that they will democratize corporate aviation. Others have done that with the "Jet Card" and other schemes. The airlines run the price of first class so high that chartering your own jet almost seems reasonable. Democratize is not accurate. How about low-end plutocrats?
 

plncraze

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
May 11, 2006
Messages
1,825
What is making this process to get the plane flying again take so long? Is changing the code to allow two AOA's and "detuniing" the MCAS really this hard? For an aircraft that domestic airlines were okay flying from the beginning it's weird that it has taken so long to fix.
 

Vigilant1

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
4,964
Location
US
What is making this process to get the plane flying again take so long? Is changing the code to allow two AOA's and "detuniing" the MCAS really this hard? For an aircraft that domestic airlines were okay flying from the beginning it's weird that it has taken so long to fix.
You aren't under the impression that this is a technical issue, are you? What we have now is a political/bureaucratic/wounded pride/trust/CYA issue, and those are always more intractable than technical issues.
 

jedi

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Messages
2,121
Location
Sahuarita Arizona, Renton Washington, USA
You aren't under the impression that this is a technical issue, are you? What we have now is a political/bureaucratic/wounded pride/trust/CYA issue, and those are always more intractable than technical issues.
If fixing the aircraft or the pilot training were the solution the Max would have been back in the air months ago.

The problem now is how to fix the certification and regulation issues and that is a very difficult and time consuming.
 

Kyle Boatright

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2012
Messages
934
Location
Marietta, GA
We have strayed too far from the rules of HBA with this discussion. Let’s get together at Beer Venture in Oshkosh and, surrounded by attractive servers, continue this over a beer or three. Andy will buy the first round.


BJC

PS Alternatively, we could discuss it after coffee at Homebuilt Headquarters.
Sounds like a great discussion. I'll buy the second round.

But the homebuilt headquarters thing doesn't work for me. Those late nights at Beer Venture, you know...
 
  • Like
Reactions: BJC
Top