Boeing - Design Issues...

Discussion in 'Rules and Regulations / Flight Safety / Better Pil' started by TXFlyGuy, Apr 11, 2019.

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  1. Dec 9, 2019 #441

    Swampyankee

    Swampyankee

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    One needs a paycheck; many employers, especially large ones are similar in how they manage workers who don't toe the corporate line. They are also far from democratic; indeed most large companies are, at best, oligarchies with elements of meritocracy; the worst could give North Korea a run for the money in treatment of their workers, with only ever-weakening labor and health and safety laws slowing the race to helot-dom for workers.

    Sometimes I think companies move to places like China not just for cheap labor, but because the government is far closer to their ideal government than Western democracy.
     
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  2. Dec 9, 2019 #442

    BJC

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    Why should a corporation be run as a democracy?

    Do you want decisions about how you manage your assets to be voted on by the people that you interact with? To make this HBA related, do you expect Vans to resolve a design issue on a new STOL kitplane being developed by allowing the employees to vote? Does the accountant’s vote carry the same weight as the shipping clerks or the engineers?

    Democracy works well for making rules of behavior among a well educated society, but failed miserably at allocating resources.


    BJC
     
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  3. Dec 9, 2019 #443

    Himat

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    Workers are stakeholders in a company, without the company they are out of work. That may make workers have a more long-term view than management and shareholders that can loot a company and run with the cash. If skilled and educated the workers may have some pride in their work too, not letting substandard work past. Democracy in a corporation may be more about management listening when employees point out bad practice, design or decisions than voting on single decisions.

    In some cases, it now looks like workers on all levels adapt to poor management with being equal cynical and short sighted. Do as told by management, keep changing employer and move on before accountability time.
     
  4. Dec 9, 2019 #444

    BJC

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    And without workers, so is the company, except in cases, like Boeing, where government intervention poisons, for whatever supposed reason (national defense), free capitalistic enterprise. Employees who choose to act in unison have tremendous power in a free-of-government-intervention economy.
    As a company owner, one should be free to “loot the company and run with the cash.”
    Skilled and educated workers who have pride in their work are a key part of any company’s success, large or small. They should be treated with respect and appropriately compensated. In the absence of governmental intervention, the good companies do those things, and the others go out of business to be replaced by better managed companies.
    That is not a description of a democracy; it is a description of a management that is effective.
    Unfortunately, continuing government intervention in our economy is perpetuating that situation.


    BJC
     
  5. Dec 10, 2019 #445

    Swampyankee

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    Why should they not? Governments deal with far greater resources, and democratic governments tend to allocate resources better than non-democratic ones, which tend to allocate resources to the governing class.
     
  6. Dec 10, 2019 #446

    BJC

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    Because governments should not allocate resources; governments should ensure, with minimal rules, equal opportunity for all citizens. History shows that once governments begin to allocate resources (usually confiscated) they become unable to contain themselves, especially when retaining power becomes all-important to professional politicians who proceed to buy votes from non-producers.

    Should the government in the USA take on the role of allocating quarter-sawn spar quality Sitka Spruce? Should a politician or a bureaucrat decide that the spar quality spruce should be used for pianos rather than homebuilt airplanes? Who really needs a private airplane, anyway, much less a dangerous one that some rich person built in his garage?


    BJC
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
  7. Dec 11, 2019 #447

    PMD

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    Finance-owned corporations are NOT "free capitalistic enterprise", but Casino Capitalist board pieces in games aimed at enriching their financial institutional owners. They are run by management put in place by financiers, and while they are in such a position, rob the company with ridiculous compensation and moreso legitimate shareholders by dilluting the living crap out of them with stock option plans. Their priority is to run things to suit the M&A plans of their masters, not as entrepreneurial business with pride in a product or service that is meant to be their life's work and legacy.
     
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  8. Dec 11, 2019 #448

    Mad MAC

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    BJC, your statement is based on assuming that business unlike governments are rational organizations, yet the humans in both organizations are drawn from the same talent pool and these persons are broadly driven by the same physic profile which suggests both are inclined to go rouge by the same margin without sufficient oversight.
     
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  9. Dec 11, 2019 #449

    BJC

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    We have strayed too far from the rules of HBA with this discussion. Let’s get together at Beer Venture in Oshkosh and, surrounded by attractive servers, continue this over a beer or three. Andy will buy the first round.


    BJC

    PS Alternatively, we could discuss it after coffee at Homebuilt Headquarters.
     
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  10. Dec 11, 2019 #450

    Swampyankee

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    In other words they act like corporations?

    Resources allocated by governments include physical infrastructure, the building of which has been a government responsibility throughout history, education, commons, like those town greens (which were shared pasture), security resources, etc


    Corporations, obviously should exist for the benefit of shareholders but many seem to be operated for the benefit of their executives.
     
  11. Dec 11, 2019 #451

    TFF

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    Actually corporations should exist for the benefit of their customers. Shareholders should just be riding the coattails. Unluckily, somehow that has been switched. If executives were held from being stockholders, their answers would be different.
     
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  12. Dec 12, 2019 #452

    PMD

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    I will make this comment and drop the issue: but this is exactly how and why hundred million dollar airplanes built in facilities with huge engineering talent come falling out of the sky - nobody is talking about the real cause of the problem (although SOME of it will definitely hit the courts and be dealt with).
     
  13. Dec 12, 2019 #453

    BJC

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    Delta Air Lines is going to “democratize” private aviation:
    story here https://news.google.com/articles/CA...2Nb3CjDivdcCMJ_d7gU?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:en


    BJC
     
  14. Dec 12, 2019 #454

    BBerson

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    Glorification of the evil word "democracy" will be the end of private aviation. (and every thing American)
     
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  15. Dec 12, 2019 #455

    plncraze

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    They probably mean ( I didn't read the article) that they will democratize corporate aviation. Others have done that with the "Jet Card" and other schemes. The airlines run the price of first class so high that chartering your own jet almost seems reasonable. Democratize is not accurate. How about low-end plutocrats?
     
  16. Dec 17, 2019 #456

    Richard6

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    Now from Boeing - stop work on all 737 max's and are not accepting any more orders.

    Richard
     
  17. Dec 17, 2019 #457

    plncraze

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    What is making this process to get the plane flying again take so long? Is changing the code to allow two AOA's and "detuniing" the MCAS really this hard? For an aircraft that domestic airlines were okay flying from the beginning it's weird that it has taken so long to fix.
     
  18. Dec 17, 2019 #458

    Vigilant1

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    You aren't under the impression that this is a technical issue, are you? What we have now is a political/bureaucratic/wounded pride/trust/CYA issue, and those are always more intractable than technical issues.
     
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  19. Dec 17, 2019 #459

    jedi

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    If fixing the aircraft or the pilot training were the solution the Max would have been back in the air months ago.

    The problem now is how to fix the certification and regulation issues and that is a very difficult and time consuming.
     
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  20. Dec 18, 2019 #460

    Kyle Boatright

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    Sounds like a great discussion. I'll buy the second round.

    But the homebuilt headquarters thing doesn't work for me. Those late nights at Beer Venture, you know...
     
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