Bill of Materials for my Fuel System Plumbing

Discussion in 'Firewall Forward / Props / Fuel system' started by wsimpso1, Jan 24, 2019.

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  1. Jan 24, 2019 #1

    wsimpso1

    wsimpso1

    wsimpso1

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    Previously, we talked about configuration, and I am settled on my system, bought some pieces and tools, and sat down to do the bill of materials so I can order all those nuts, sleeves, elbows, tees, and nipples of various sorts. Wow. So I started wondering if I am doing all of this right. My system is talked about on here with a sketch of it - https://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30820&page=3

    I have hose nipples with 3" pieces of 3/8" ID hose to get from each tank into hard lines, the rest of the stuff aft of the firewall is 3/8" tubing, with sleeves, nuts, bulkhead connectors, etc), with a shutoff valve at each tank, 100 micron filters before the selector valve, and 40 micron filters before and after the EFI pump. Once we go forward of the firewall, it is all hoses, a metal fuel rail, and 1/8" lines to each of the injectors. There are a nineteen tubes with flared ends and two sleeves and nuts on each. Four of these flare nut equipped tubes, two tees and four nipples are just connecting the transfer pumps together.

    Does this many pieces and connectors sound about right for my system? Not fair suggesting a simpler system, all three tanks and redundant pumps are staying...

    So, I started looking around. Hmm, Wicks and Aircraft Spruce sell all the usual AN fittings for about the same money. Then there is Phenix Industries that I see in both catalogs. Even pricier and they make you figure out which of their parts are equivalent to AN stuff... I guess they are proud of their stuff, the price shows it, and making an easy comparison to AN for checking prices probably is not helping them sell more. A number of my hard lines are quite short, like those four on my transfer pump set. With my flare tool, I can make a line with nuts and sleeves that is about 2-5/8" long for a little over 4$. Phenix Industries sells a close coupler, looks like about 1-1/2" for close to $7, and their 45 and 90 degree couplers are nearly $12. So, if you need the close quarters parts they have, they may be worth it. Otherwise I will use my tube bender and flare tool. Have not looked too hard at Summit and Jegs yet, but I will.

    Any other hints on places to shop for my fuel system pieces? Reports on customer service are helpful too.

    Last up - running these lines from the outer wing sections, through the middle section, into the fusealge, and forward in the fuselage, these tubes cross ribs, fuselage walls, and center console boundaries. I am familiar with how the lines, valves, and filters are secured and prevented from wearing through in metal birds, but fiberglass appears to have some unique challenges. So far, all I know about are little patches of BID over the lines and bonded-on ziptie anchors...

    What methods are used in composite birds for anchoring and preventing wearing through fuel lines and associated pieces? Got any pros/cons on each method?

    Thanks in advance for looking and thinking about my little questions.

    Billski
     
  2. Jan 25, 2019 #2

    rv6ejguy

    rv6ejguy

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    I'd stick to Eaton (Aeroquip). US made https://aeroquipperformance.com/p-24109-100-proof.html . Earls as a second choice. Many of the other fitting manufacturers moved production offshore years ago and I've seen some questionable ones.

    ACS was called out a few years back for selling some poor quality (but cheap) fittings for homebuilders. You don't need any part of that on an aircraft fuel system.

    We buy thousands of fittings annually. Never been disappointed with the 2 brands above.
     
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  3. Jan 25, 2019 #3

    Toobuilder

    Toobuilder

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    On the composite stuff my company does, we use Clickbond studs and adel clamps by the million.

    As for the rest of your BOM, start keeping an eye on VAF... For some reason they tend to want to "clean out" their hangars when the airplane is done (morons!). When I see someone dumping their hardware for pennies on the dollar I tend to grab it all. As a consequence I have a pretty good supply hoarded and am ready to go. When I need the odd fitting, Spruce is my go to. And if I need one, I'll buy 5 just to justify the shipping. I have used Summit/Jegs from time to time, but typically Spruce beats them in price.
     
  4. Jan 25, 2019 #4
  5. Jan 25, 2019 #5

    wsimpso1

    wsimpso1

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    So far Aircraft Spruce and Wicks have the best prices on the stuff I need a lot of, AN818-6D and AN819-6D nuts and sleeves. Parts I have from Wicks have a logo with R above E in a left bracket, but I do not know who that is. Anybody know? In the various speed shops online they either do not tell you the maker or they do tell you if you are looking at Earl's, and either way, I am finding prices 40-50% higher. Aeroquip has a store in Dearborn, Parker has one in Ann Arbor, I'll check them out... Anyone else have a dealer of good AN parts?

    I was looking at Click-Bond studs. Can put them anywhere you need them. Was also looking at making reinforced anchors per Gougeon Brothers - small drill through the fiberglass face sheet, then a short bent nail spun with the drill motor to remove foam near the hole, shoot the hole with thickened epoxy, then a threaded insert and short piece of threaded rod. Either way Adel clamps carry the tubes on the stud...

    Billski
     
  6. Jan 25, 2019 #6

    proppastie

    proppastie

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  7. Jan 25, 2019 #7

    Dana

    Dana

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    I don't know if this is true for AN fittings, but I've had lots of trouble with commercial flare couplings on propane systems; my theory is that making the flare inside the nut is less properly shaped than one made with a proper flare tool. If you have room to make your own you're probably better off.

    Summit Racing is another source for AN fittings and Aeroquip parts.
     
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  8. Jan 25, 2019 #8

    lakeracer69

    lakeracer69

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    Billski, Try Genuine aircraft hardware. They do give price reductions for multiples.
     
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  9. Jan 25, 2019 #9

    BJC

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    Several years ago a neighbor completed his 8th or 10th homebuilt, many of which were quality award winners. He also has renovated certificated airplanes. Point is that he was not a newbie for the build under discussion. The airplane has two fuel tanks, plus a complex oil system and compressed air start system for the M14P engine. To save on the cost of all the fittings and SS braided hose, he yielded to the widespread recommendations and bought “equivalent to Aeroquip aircraft” fittings and hose from one of the racing supply houses.

    After just a few flights, he started finding leaks. He ultimately replaced all of the fittings and hose.

    As a counterpoint, several builders here have used racing supply house hose and fittings with no problems.

    I plan to use nothing but Mil Spec hose and fittings for all FWF and all fuel (2 tank) system.


    BJC
     
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  10. Jan 25, 2019 #10

    TFF

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    Why the short flex line before the hard line is my question. Lots of extra hardware. With hardware , many times you just end up getting it from several sources as shelf stock changes. Sometimes the can get an order out soon or that fitting may not be on a production run for another 6 months. I would start with ACS and what they can't fill start filling in from other places if lead times are high. Price wise ACS buys enough, to be hard to beat prices. I have been to the local Parker store getting stuff and Hot Rod shop, Goddman, that has a web sales page but not the best point of sale sight. If they don't usually sell to airplane people don't tell them why. I have had enough of those doors shut because of that; sometimes they do think its cool if they are cool.
     
  11. Jan 25, 2019 #11

    Marc Zeitlin

    Marc Zeitlin

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    When you say "nipple", do you mean an AN816 nipple for flared fittings, or do you mean an AN840 nipple for slip-on hose with hose clamps?

    If the former, great - ignore the part of this about slip-on rubber hose.

    If the latter, please don't. I STRONGLY discourage slip on rubber hose, not to mention that rubber hose is maintenance intensive and needs to be replaced every 5 - 8 years, depending upon to whom you listen. Either use 3003 AL hard lines with flared fittings, or Aeroquip 666 flex lines (with firesleeve, forward of the firewall) for ALL fuel and oil lines. No maintenance needed, no worries about cracked rubber and leakage.

    While expensive, I like to get my flex hoses from a reputable hose shop (I've been using ACS recently - they're fast) and while pre-fab custom hoses are expensive, they do a good job, they pressure test, they use approved materials, and they do a very professional job of installing the firesleeve - either the orange slip-on type which get the ends sealed, or the integral silicone firesleeve, which is more robust but can't bend to as tight a radius.

    If you're going to fabricate your own hoses, make sure you get approved conductive teflon/SS hose for fuel and oil lines.

    My $0.02.
     
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  12. Jan 26, 2019 #12

    wsimpso1

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    When you say ACS, who do you mean? There is ACS products, Aviation Component Solutions, and Aircraft Spruce and Specialty (usually abbreviated AS&S)

    Billski
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
  13. Jan 26, 2019 #13

    wsimpso1

    wsimpso1

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    Marc, appreciate the comments on avoiding soft lines.

    Who do you mean when you say ACS? ACS Products? Aviation Component Solutions? Or even Aircraft Spruce and Specialty (AS&S is probably a better abbreviation for them).

    Bill
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
  14. Jan 26, 2019 #14

    Toobuilder

    Toobuilder

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    ACS has meant Air Craft Spruce to me for as long as me and my buddies have been flying down to Corona to buy stuff. To avoid confusion, if I say "ACS" in a post, it's Spruce.
     
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  15. Jan 26, 2019 #15

    Marc Zeitlin

    Marc Zeitlin

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    Ditto.
     
  16. Jan 26, 2019 #16

    wsimpso1

    wsimpso1

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    Missed this earlier. It was an expedient for connection of my wing tanks (fuel transfer lines to the header from the wing outer panel). I had what seemed a decent rationale. The connections were at a 6"x6" inspection cover that would be removed at Condition Inspection anyway, would be easily replaced, and used Gates MPI Barricade hose. In consultation with the materials engineer in the house, she concluded that this hose will stand ethanol and will probably last longer in use than I will live anyway.

    In looking more closely at it, it does complicate (rather than simplify) the hardware in the wing join, and has potential for causing maintenance issues down the road. Since I can rather simply do this with hard lines, I have adjusted my plan.

    One other thing, I compared my count of flare nuts and sleeves with a friend's RV8. He has pieces for a dozen tubes with flared ends, only two tanks, and only one pump behind the firewall. Given the higher tank and pump count, my system looks of reasonable size.

    Billski
     

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