# BAN ALL DRONES! - Eric Zorn, Chicago Tribune

Discussion in 'Hangar Flying' started by Inverted Vantage, Aug 1, 2015.

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1. Dec 18, 2015

### SVSUSteve

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Yup. I've seen what hail will do to a jet engine. It's a very good reminder of just how puny even our best designed creations are fallible especially when nature gets ugly. As Ian Malcolm (Jeff Goldblum) said in The Lost World: "Mommy is very angry".

2. Dec 19, 2015

### skier

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Or the FAA just eliminates operations beyond line-of-sight unless you have special training. I honestly don't see too much of a problem with these things if operated in a manner similar to old-school RC planes. The issues I see poping up are mostly a result of the long range. With the old RC planes, once it got too far away you couldn't tell what direction it was heading, which resulted in a crash. These RC planes were also primarily (if not solely) operated at designated AMA sanctioned flying fields which tended to be out of the way of the general public.

Now we have aircraft that won't let themselves crash operating well out of the visual range of the operator. No worry about crashing and wasting . Worst case is the aircraft lands itself somewhere and you just have to find it.

3. Dec 19, 2015

### SVSUSteve

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Honestly, the best and cheapest approach is just requiring a bit of software on non-commercial drones that says "You're at 500 feet, you're not going any higher" and "You're more than 2500 feet from the controller, the motor is shutting down". If you're in an aircraft you're probably not trucking along at 500 feet above the terrain more than a very short distance off the end of a runway. If you are....well, natural selection is still very much a thing.

4. Dec 19, 2015

### D Hillberg

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Helicopters 500 feet is normal cruise for short distances as for pt 133 your long line will be in your riggers hand 50 to 150 feet below your butt. . .

5. Dec 19, 2015

### nerobro

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They happily let themselves crash. Lots, and LOTS of phantoms are lost. They're frequently found stuck in trees, in fields, in streams. They don't actually land themselves. "best case" they run low on power, and go into a "controlled" descent. Without someone at the controls, they typically get damaged on a landing like that.

"Fly aways" are a known problem with phantoms. And if you're a bad pilot, frequnet. At $800-1200 a pop, people do that more than once. People who seriously fly BVR are not the people you need to worry about. 6. Dec 19, 2015 ### TahoeTim ### TahoeTim #### Well-Known Member Joined: Apr 28, 2011 Messages: 109 Likes Received: 38 Location: South Lake Tahoe. Ca. Wow, 27 pages of dribble from the typical frequent members who post all oven on topics they know absolutely nothing about. I have 6 drones. None are store bought. I 3d print frames, I buy controller boards that i freely program and flash. I assemble my drones from parts. I will not register any of them because i fly on my own private property of 11 acres out in the woods. I know people in my town that fly around in the meadows to have fun. I take off from my airport with any fear of drones. I am careful to prevent the number one and number two causes of aircraft deaths - engine failure and stalls. Both are pilot error in my opinion. This is insane considering there are 13000 bird strikes a year and virtually no drone strikes so far. You are reacting to a fear that does not exist. 7. Dec 19, 2015 ### SVSUSteve ### SVSUSteve #### Well-Known Member Joined: Aug 21, 2007 Messages: 3,889 Likes Received: 938 Location: Evansville, Indiana I treat the off the shelf drone community with the same suspicion/skepticism that I hold for VFR pilots. The vast majority (probably over 90%) are responsible but there are enough out there who don't give a **** or who put too much stock in see and avoid (which even the FAA admits is a crap shoot at best given the physiology of human vision) and produce a collision risk. Says the guy whose opinion is clouded by either his desire to not get his hobby reigned in or (less likely since I happen to think you're a pretty intelligent fellow) who doesn't understand the concept of frequency vs population. There are billions of birds in North America. There are proportionally much fewer drones and they have only recently been put in the hands of those who don't realize the risks. It's like saying that in 1895 or 1896 when Bridget Driscoll was struck by a car that there was no reason to worry about pedestrians being hit by cars because far more people were kicked to death by horses. Yes, focus on the major risks but ignoring a problem because it's new or doesn't seem significant in your opinion is a good way to get bitten squarely on the ass. By the way, you're a responsible owner just like I was when I built and flew model planes. The issue isn't the responsible owners- it's the drone equivalents of the drunken rednecks or cracked out ghetto dwellers who accidentally shoot people or worse. Unfortunately, you don't write regulations or establish operational procedures based on the most intelligent, experienced or conservative person out there. You write them for the guy who barely passed training, the one whose mother drank while pregnant or who ate lead paint chips as a child or the one who thinks he's good to make a mistake. Ah....I've never dealt with short distance helicopter ops so I was thinking of fixed wing. A lot of HEMS operators (which is where most of my knowledge of rotorcraft ops comes from) increasingly stipulate 1000 AGL above except for approach and landing but that has to do with wind turbines and towers. 8. Dec 19, 2015 ### D Hillberg ### D Hillberg #### Well-Known Member Joined: Nov 24, 2010 Messages: 1,158 Likes Received: 425 Location: very low low low earth orbit helicopter pilots have weak noses they bleed at 1500 ft Joe Fisher, SVSUSteve and Blue Chips like this. 9. Dec 19, 2015 ### mcrae0104 ### mcrae0104 #### Armchair Mafia ConspiratorHBA Supporter Joined: Oct 27, 2009 Messages: 2,987 Likes Received: 1,986 Location: BDU, BJC You get the How to Win Friends and Influence People award for the day. Congratulations! 10. Dec 19, 2015 ### SVSUSteve ### SVSUSteve #### Well-Known Member Joined: Aug 21, 2007 Messages: 3,889 Likes Received: 938 Location: Evansville, Indiana Thank you. That made me smile. It made me think of my friend Steve who was the pilot of the Maryland Trooper 2 helicopter when it crashed. It was a joke of his to say "I have an STC on my nose for a reverse radar altimeter: blood shoots out if I get more than a couple thousand feet up". He had a great but weird sense of humor. Absent comrades. 11. Dec 19, 2015 ### D Hillberg ### D Hillberg #### Well-Known Member Joined: Nov 24, 2010 Messages: 1,158 Likes Received: 425 Location: very low low low earth orbit been in helicopter aviation for over 40 years long before this drone c, r, a, p. I've seen LOTS of threats to aviation and a bunch of idiots with a new 'toy' ARE A HAZARD. just like cell phone towers next to and inside of air port traffic patterns , power lines that pop up along mountain routes and now toy drones, thought cruise missiles test routes were a pain now add a few hundred thousand pos toys buzzing through the clouds, yeah I have no idea . . .Sadly 99% of the public are 'F'ing clueless. Just like those they elect into public office, Joe Fisher and SVSUSteve like this. 12. Dec 19, 2015 ### TahoeTim ### TahoeTim #### Well-Known Member Joined: Apr 28, 2011 Messages: 109 Likes Received: 38 Location: South Lake Tahoe. Ca. Not to bring in another example into the discussion but this is exactly gun control again. The dip****s will ignore all laws anyway so they will not register and will build quad copters from parts and flash the controller to get around any autonomous restrictions. Same goes with guns. I have flown r/c for 50 years and have shot sporting guns in target/competition for 50 years too. I am tired of my sport being regulated when we all know that the true offenders will never comply. Our would is full of similar examples like drinking and driving, drug overdose, fertilizer based bombs, etc but we accept a certain amount of risk in life. The FAA reasoning that the sticker on my drone helps them track me down after the incident does nothing to prevent the accident. Nothing. It's another knee jerk fell good effort. If we all want to up the safety of flying a tad, let's require every plane to use a radio including gliders. They are rechargable and portable so what's the issue about all of us communicating in the sky? And why not have a little more training on the care of an internal combustion engine instead of being afraid of the red knob. Here at Lake Tahoe we lose a couple of planes every year. Overloaded and/or too rich/too lean crash on takeoff by pilots who come here from sea level. I see the point of drones becoming an up and coming issue BUT there is a lot of low hanging fruit that will save more lives per year right now that we are stepping over to chase a new demon. The idiots will never register and run away if they cause an accident so why bother punishing the rest of us? Educate them at the time of purchase- sure. I can get behind that. D Hillberg likes this. 13. Dec 19, 2015 ### nerobro ### nerobro #### Well-Known Member Joined: Nov 6, 2011 Messages: 1,109 Likes Received: 312 Location: Northern Illinois There just aren't that many of them. The quads that are a problem, are the ones sold by DJI. DJI is a 10 million dollar company. A quadcopter setup from them is on the order of$1500. That gives a maximum of about 6700 DJI quadcopters on the market.

Lets assume DYS, Cheeson, hubsan, horizon hobby, etc.. are together as big as DJI. There ~might~ be 13,000 quadcopters with the ability to do things that really give pilots hives. Unlike real airplanes, these things have a 7-25 minute flight time, and the batteries take hours to charge. Also, people crash them. A lot. They're also expensive, so people tend to not like to put them in places that might get them hurt. (Unlike my quads, where props are $1 each, a DJI prop is$10.)

Lets say 5% of that 13,000 is a potential problem. Your panties are in a bunch over 650 quadcopters... Worldwide.

The "500,000" number you'r hearing bandied about includes the $20 cheerson CX-10, the$150 Estes ProtoX, the Hubsan 105, and 107 series, .... all stuff that won't get registered anyway. The VAST majority of the "drone" market is aircraft to small, and with to short of a flight time, to be a problem. Ranges of tens, maybe hundreds of feet, flight times of five, maybe ten minutes.

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14. Dec 19, 2015

### Himat

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I would guess that it would not be that difficult to add a ranging function to the UAV control link. On a commercial sold multicopter it would then be possible to program a range "limit" of say 1500 feet. Mandate this for all who sell ready assembled "drones" and most of the problem goes away.

15. Dec 19, 2015

### Himat

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The possibility of remote control and first person view should then come as relief. You can now get most of the work done with your feet firmly on the ground.

16. Dec 19, 2015

### skier

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or just skip over to the 21st century and require everything operating in the National Air Space System from RCs and Quadcopters to A380s to have ADS-B out and ADS-B in capabilities. Everyone knows where you are and you know where everyone else is. Problems solved. I know. "It's too expensive"

17. Dec 19, 2015

### Hot Wings

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This whole thing reminds me of the "good old days" of CB radios and the FCC trying to shut down the truckers running liner amps. They went through about the same process we are seeing here with the drones.

There is a corollary to Edmund Burke's quote: Those that do know are doomed to watch history repeat knowing that there is very little they can do to change the outcome ....

Cheap bidirectional ADS-B would go a long way toward solving this problem and our upcoming ADS-B deadline as well.

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18. Dec 19, 2015

### Topaz

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Too expensive for one. Upwards of \$3000 currently? That's adding about 35% to the total cost of my little motorglider, for one piece of avionics. And in pure gliders, where's the power coming from? Gliders don't have an engine, remember, and we can't hang a wind-driven generator out in the breeze like a Cub. Glider flights can extend for hours and upwards of 1,000 km. How are we supposed to carry a battery big enough to operate an ADS-B transceiver continuously for that amount of time, and where do we put it? We get by with hand-held comm radios because they only get used in high-power transmit mode for maybe thirty seconds or a couple of minutes a flight. Our mobile-device instrument augmentation consumes milliWatts, and can run all day on a couple thousand milliWatt-hour battery. An ADS-B transceiver pulls full-digit Watts every time it transmits, every few seconds. Powering that for eight hours is going to take something bigger and heavier than a car battery, with no means to recharge it in-flight, and traps the airplane on the ground for hours until it's been recharged by plugging it in (where?), or days via solar panel. And who's going to pay for the STC to approve the structural modifications necessary to hold that battery safely, somewhere near the CG?

Sure, "just put in an ADS-B" sounds like a fine strategy here on an Internet forum. Out there in the real world, it's a little more complicated.

Last edited: Dec 19, 2015
19. Dec 19, 2015

### Topaz

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Cheap bidirectional ADS-B is a matter of getting the market numbers up so you get economies of scale for things like custom boards, casings, and development of the software and low-cost transceivers.

Fitting ADS-B to unpowered gliders - and drones weighing as little as 250g - is a matter of physics. With modern battery technology, the numbers don't work.

Last edited: Dec 19, 2015
20. Dec 19, 2015

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