automotive paints, anyone?

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PTAirco

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I owned a paint and body shop for a while, so forgive me if I skew things.

First, if it is going to sit in the sun for any length of time, I would 100% clearcoat it. It is an easy thing to do and the benefits far outweigh any downsides.
Can you explain why every other car here in California and Nevada has the clear coat falling off after only a short time? Even high end cars. I thought sunlight was the enemy of clear coat? Fungus growth underneath and all that.

I would never use the stuff in this environment.
 

TFF

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If the base coat is not “soft”it can get too hard to lock the clear on. There is a time limit when applying. Some is sun exposure. If it’s weekly applied, sun will cook it bad. I also know of you spray sun tan or mosquito spray on car paint, it will mess up clear.
 

dwalker

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Can you explain why every other car here in California and Nevada has the clear coat falling off after only a short time? Even high end cars. I thought sunlight was the enemy of clear coat? Fungus growth underneath and all that.

I would never use the stuff in this environment.
California And Nevada are kind of aberrations. Nevada has issues with crappy repair work and massive amounts of sun and abrasive dust. California has the sun, stupid laws about what paint can be used in auto repair shops, and stupid people.
Clearcoat rot can be caused by many things, but at the end of the day stupidity is a good bet.

That said, I know guys that ceramic coated, detailed, and otherwise cared for the paint on this cars and it looks new for years and years.
 

BBerson

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Clear coat isn't the best topcoat for sunlight because clear has no UV absorbing pigment solids to protect the clear resin.
 

dwalker

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Clear coat isn't the best topcoat for sunlight because clear has no UV absorbing pigment solids to protect the clear resin.

Well, it depends. Done properly it helps
Key word properly....

If put on too thin or sanded/polished or, it's not so good..


.
 

BBerson

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The clear will protect the base slightly by sacrificing itself and pealing off like the outer layer of human skin.
One stage doesn't have layers that can disbond.
The owner of Polyfiber told me there is no UV stable clear coat.
 

dwalker

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The clear will protect the base slightly by sacrificing itself and pealing off like the outer layer of human skin.
One stage doesn't have layers that can disbond.
The owner of Polyfiber told me there is no UV stable clear coat.
PPG disagrees with that statement. Automotive basecoat has no UV protection for itself, it must be cleared with a proper uv protective clearcoat.
 

BBerson

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I am aware that they prefer to sell twice as much products for two stage, but for aircraft weight is the enemy.
 

dwalker

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I am aware that they prefer to sell twice as much products but for aircraft weight is the enemy.
Have we compared total mil thickness? My guess is most modern paints will weigh less and last longer than aeroplane paints.
 

TFF

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Modern Auto paint in base clear is probably the lightest pain to put on a plane. Airplane paint like airliners use is very heavy. Excluding mistakes I had to fix, I painted an Enstrom helicopter with about half a gallon of base and half a gallon of clear.
 

dwalker

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Modern Auto paint in base clear is probably the lightest pain to put on a plane. Airplane paint like airliners use is very heavy. Excluding mistakes I had to fix, I painted an Enstrom helicopter with about half a gallon of base and half a gallon of clear.
I think this is accurate.
 

57Marty

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Not interested in clearcoat processes.
Anyone have experience with the less expensive single stage automotive paints; either multi-part urethanes, or the older acrylic enamel tech?
Stuff like Eastwood, Dupli Color, Summit, etc.
I need at least some perspective on appearance compared to the high end automotive urethanes. Summit's single stage literature implies that it can be topcoated, leading one to question the finish quality when used single stage. Talking to them was no help; they hedged & said 'it varies by color'.

I started an earlier thread about vinyl covering (thanks for the great perspectives), and would like to get input on the less expensive paints. Looks like materials costs will be about the same, and for a minimally experienced painter like me (painted a Kolb with latex house paint), I figure that the big flat surfaces would be easier to wrap but the complex curved stuff *might* be easier to paint, and the cowl/wheel pants will probably survive better if painted. Which raises the question of whether any of the less expensive paints would be available from local vendors and could be color matched (to the vinyl).

Thanks for any perspective you can offer.
Charlie
I teach for Stewart Systems and we recently received clarification from the FAA regarding an inquiry about vinyl wraps. According to the FAA, full vinyl wraps are not acceptable. What percentage is full wrap is a big question. They spoke of the limited testing available and the safety issue if a large vinyl application came loose during flight. N numbers and graphic are ok but full wraps no longer acceptable. Not sure how that applies to EAB; might be up to the DAR.
Marty57
 

PTAirco

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California And Nevada are kind of aberrations. Nevada has issues with crappy repair work and massive amounts of sun and abrasive dust. California has the sun, stupid laws about what paint can be used in auto repair shops, and stupid people.
Clearcoat rot can be caused by many things, but at the end of the day stupidity is a good bet.

That said, I know guys that ceramic coated, detailed, and otherwise cared for the paint on this cars and it looks new for years and years.
Seriously? Clear coat fails in CA and NV because of your political views and abrasive dust? And because living in CA somehow impairs the IQ of people? Really?

I see this on factory new cars, after only a few years, not just badly repaired cars.

Could somebody with some actual knowledge on the subject chime in?
 

dwalker

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Seriously? Clear coat fails in CA and NV because of your political views and abrasive dust? And because living in CA somehow impairs the IQ of people? Really?
Wow.. Just... WOW..

It took me a minute to decide how to respond to this, so here we go-


You don't have to like the fact that the law in California does not allow specific paint processes and requires others without regard to how they actually perform. The LAW, not politics, are the issues. It gets just as hot with more sun in Arizona, but because they have very little interference on product use, those guys can use stuff that works.

Now, sure, small volume semi-custom shops skirt the rules and there is no shortage of crooked shops that will use whatever it takes to not have to repaint your car when the clearcoat flakes off, but by and large the industry there is handicapped.
Again,you do not have to LIKE the answer, but that IS the answer. CA requires use of waterborne paint processes and restricts the amount of solids in the paints they do allow. I personally had to paint my own car I was keeping in CA with an inferior product because none of my suppliers would ship me the products I knew would hold up.

Nevada does not have this issue with supplies, but they have a lot of sun. I myself, having lived in Reno, Tahoe, and the Bay area, and having dealt with a fair number of shop in Nevada over the years, I am never surprised to see a car with lifting clearcoat. However, I will also tell you I rarely saw a car in Nevada with actual clearcoat rot. Sandblasted paint with deep deep scratches that would not polish out yes, but not much bad clearcoat.

I see this on factory new cars, after only a few years, not just badly repaired cars.
I think what you meant was you see cars with (what you assume) is factory ORIGINAL paint with clearcoat rot after just a few years. Factory New implies new right out of the factory, not in use for several years.

Here again, you ASSume things in a way that suits you instead of simply accepting information you may not like. Dealerships paint cars all the time to repair lot damage. OEM paint can have issues without any help and have adhesion issues causing it to lift right off (looking at you Dodge...) and unless you know the paint has been cared for- waxed or sealed, washed fairly regularly, etc. then who is to say? Maybe the owner got the buffer out every three weeks and "polished it" until there was less than a mil of clear left. Maybe they washed the car with Dawn soap and stripped the wax clean off, along with the drying the paint right out.

I am not sure what answer you are fishing for, maybe global warming or industrial pollution or acid rain or whatever, but honestly clear coat rot often comes down to a very simple thing- the clearcoat is in some way neglected or damaged.

Last thing- I have seen a lot of paintwork damaged by "detailers" mostly involving "buffing out scratches" and leaving the paintwork very very thin. This is stupid and deserves to be called stupid and
Could somebody with some actual knowledge on the subject chime in?
You asked, I answered. You don"t like the answer so you insult me, assume politics when none are mentioned, and go try and find another one you like better. No skin off my teeth, enjoy your search.
 

dwalker

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What soap or process do you recommend for washing airplanes?

Thanks,


BJC
MMM thats an interesting question-
So for just cleaning up paintwork between washes I personally like the "quik" detailers like Mothers or Mequires, etc. as long you you make sure you use a clean microfiber, the surface is very wet, and you do not press down with any real force. You are just trying to remove light surface contamination and apply some wax or sealant.
Now if you are actually washing a dirty plane-
Any decent "car wash" will work. In the detail area of the body shop my guys used a lot of Mothers and Chemical Guys products, and I actually like Dawn soap to wash very dirty and oily paint just knowing that it will strip all the wax etc. off the paintwork and you will have to rewax or seal the paint. IF you are washing parts that might be painted in the near future or you are getting ready to paint, or are wetsanding after paint etc. Dawn dish soap is your best friend. You can safely wash everything without worrying about it being contaminated and paint not sticking to it later.


This sort of assumes automotive paint. I have painted pieces for aircraft when I owned the body shop and I have taken some time to look at other aircraft painted with auto paint recently, and pretty much the same thing applies so far.
 

BJC

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Thanks. You comment about Dawn had me wondering if it is damaging my pailt. I normally use Dawn to wash with, and follow that with Meguiar’s Quick Detailer.


BJC
 

PTAirco

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I'm just a stupid California dweller, but I can't quite see how roofs and horizontal areas on cars seem to get "sandblasted" more than the sides and the front. Hm.

So every car I see here with the clear coat falling off ( even those only a few years old) has been to a dodgy dealer or repair shop where they used sub-standard materials put on by stupid Californians? Is that what I'm seeing? I don't think that accounts for the sheer numbers I'm seeing and I personally know lots of people whose new cars this happened to after an unreasonably short time.

"CA requires use of waterborne paint processes and restricts the amount of solids in the paints they do allow "; I see this even on fairly new imported cars - are you telling me overseas manufacturers put on inferior "environmentally-friendly" paint on cars destined for California? And a different paint for those they send to Arizona or Oklahoma, for example? Because they don't actually make cars in California, you know that, right?

I don't think l our local auto paint shop even stocks any water borne systems, I'll be sure to report him to the EPA, if he doesn't.

I'm not a chemist but I suspect clear coat paint has been chosen by manufacturers because it is a cheaper way of getting a shiny surface, with less time and skill required - not because it is somehow a better product. I didn't see this problem with single stage paints decades ago. Sure it fades, but it doesn't break down like this. The sheer scale of this problem here is amazing.


So, to summarize : whenever I see a car with this problem it's because of stupid Californian laws about some waterborne paints, put on by stupid people, after the car left the factory. And vertical sandblasting.

My questions are rhetoric - I don't need a response. I just want to know why clear coats on cars are failing after only a short time - that's all. Nothing in your answer seems like even a reasonable theory.
 

dwalker

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Thanks. You comment about Dawn had me wondering if it is damaging my pailt. I normally use Dawn to wash with, and follow that with Meguiar’s Quick Detailer.


BJC
The Quik Detailer is good, but you want to use some kind of wax/sealer/protectant after washing with Dawn, or any soap really.
 
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