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Anyone turn in an engine as a 'core'?

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TFF

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Only with buying an engine. Unless it’s a rare part number, doubt they will buy up a core you have sitting. Just depends on what you have. Condition and last time run is important if you turn one in to Lycoming.
 

TFF

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I have only returned them with overhauled engines we payed for. I think it depends on who you end up buying from. With Aviall we have an account, and they hold it due over your head until you return it, if you want to buy some other stuff. I think Airpower holds money until you return it. Then they refund. There is a list of stuff they require on the engine or they add that to the core cost. I always send back the worst accessories I have on hand. They don’t care as long as the right one is there. They may or may not open it up. What they want is a good crank and case. Lycoming crushes the cylinders after they remove the heads. Anything else good to them is a bonus.
 

pfarber

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Thanks for the reply. I've posted an several forums and you're the only person to actually post on the process.

I figured that there were only a few parts they really wanted, but I am unclear on if they NDT the case and crank first or just accept anything on the pallet. Giving away thousands for us-serviceable parts seems unlikely.

I'm just trying to figure out if high time/runout engines that are sold for basically right at 'core value' is a legit pricing strategy. ie if I buy a high time motor and rebuild it, I will never get the core value and also risk a bad crank or cracked case, and paying core value means that I save no money since the value is on good if I buy a new motor.
 

TFF

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It depends on the core. The helicopters I deal with one has the odd part numbers and one is very popular for homebuilts. The core is valuable On the odd, because if you need one, you need one. Lycoming sets the value at $12,000, so it hurts if you don’t return one. We had two extra cores from buying low time engines from damaged aircraft. We sold one recently for 8k. It was bought just for the crank; an independent rebuilder bought it. That one holds its value. It also has not so many uses without mods. The other is popular in homebuilts and tend to get sucked up for high performance fixed pitch planes. They use to be a dime a dozen until the extras ran out.

You buying a core or a high time is always a crap shoot. Lycoming will take an engine if it has not been split and the guts swapped out for junk. They will eat something like that. They prefer the engine have been run in the last year or preserved. Never had a problem turning in one in. They will eat certain things if it looks up and up. They can tell if it hasn’t run in 30 years.

If you are going to rebuild your own, core is all over the place value wise. If you are trying to get a $2000 IO-360, you just have to buy whatever comes up faster than anybody else and hope you get a good deal. I have a friend who bought 4 engines for his plane. First a run out core. I kept telling him it would would be fine. It was starting to make metal from the cam, but his flying consisted of 15-30 min flights once a week. He flew it 40 hours to sign off the plane and sold it. Everyone said split it fix it fly it. Next engine was bigger and he thought he scored, 100% bad. Total loss. Had to throw it away. The third he bought and turned around and sold because he was scared. The fourth has been scrounged piece by piece, but it’s running and flying, but it’s all old almost used up parts. It’s also an odd combo for the type of plane so it adds almost no value to the plane. His first engine is technically the best. He spent way more chasing than digging in early on.

Buy a core and you need to know what if a cam is bad what it’s going to cost; crank good, turnable, cracked, same. Im a bottom feeder like my buddy. I had to split my engine. Most was great, but I did not like my crank. I had exceeded my purchasing for that year and had to wait a year to fix it. It wasn’t even all that expensive to fix but my toy money was used up. It would have run ok if it didn’t need to be open because it was stuck from sitting. It wasn’t unsafe, but it wasn’t right either.
 

pfarber

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I was forwarded a copy of the core turn in requirements and Lycoming is very strict (on paper).

Must be running, must be complete, must be serviceable. You can only exhange like for like. So you have a goofy one off engine? Your core is only good towards that engine purchase, not a general credit.

The repair center in snippet wants not only your core, but a SECOND CHECK for the value of the core... which is used if the core is not useable. So you seem to have to turn in a check for the NEW engine, your core engine, and a check for the full value of the core in case the core is unusable.

So it seems that anyone who lists a random barn find engine is F.O.S. when they say it can be used as a core. Lycoming will not accept a core without a log book!!!
 

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TFF

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I think as a core is relative. Core generic means rebuild it not fly it. Basic stuff is there so a generic engine shop would send off the mag and carb or FI and pump and such. Cores for those shops. Crank, rods and case if they pass inspection will get it’s stuff done. Same with cylinders. Then you add in options.


If you buy an overhaul from Lycoming, they know you are serious, because you are spending money for the factory stuff. you need a O-360 A1A you need to send in one. I deal with a helicopter version a HIO-360 F1AD. It’s parts bin but special; it’s a front governor case engine with the “duel” mag. Caveat is the front gov is not machined, Bendix does not make that mag anymore, and there is no thrust bearing on the crank. They want THAT core. I have heard of core exchanges with that the core was actually better or rare enough that there was a deal made. That is rare.

At my price play, if I can make it run , it’s a useable core. I will IRAN it into the ground. My engine is a O-290 G. Worthless. It does have an airplane crank I turned .006 under new bearings and mags and chrome cylinders with 100 hours on them. It did sit for 20 years and the valves and lifters were stuck. Had to take the whole thing apart.

At work we have gone TBO with ten engines in the 15 years with only three cylinder changes and a leaky fuel pump or bad mag occasionally. That is pretty reliable. Worth the money. That is why we bought the expensive Lycomings. $40,000 a piece.

A random hangar find engine would be going to Aircraft Specialties not Lycoming. Just a different level of play.
 

pfarber

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I think as a core is relative. Core generic means rebuild it not fly it. Basic stuff is there so a generic engine shop would send off the mag and carb or FI and pump and such. Cores for those shops. Crank, rods and case if they pass inspection will get it’s stuff done. Same with cylinders. Then you add in options.


If you buy an overhaul from Lycoming, they know you are serious, because you are spending money for the factory stuff. you need a O-360 A1A you need to send in one. I deal with a helicopter version a HIO-360 F1AD. It’s parts bin but special; it’s a front governor case engine with the “duel” mag. Caveat is the front gov is not machined, Bendix does not make that mag anymore, and there is no thrust bearing on the crank. They want THAT core. I have heard of core exchanges with that the core was actually better or rare enough that there was a deal made. That is rare.

At my price play, if I can make it run , it’s a useable core. I will IRAN it into the ground. My engine is a O-290 G. Worthless. It does have an airplane crank I turned .006 under new bearings and mags and chrome cylinders with 100 hours on them. It did sit for 20 years and the valves and lifters were stuck. Had to take the whole thing apart.

At work we have gone TBO with ten engines in the 15 years with only three cylinder changes and a leaky fuel pump or bad mag occasionally. That is pretty reliable. Worth the money. That is why we bought the expensive Lycomings. $40,000 a piece.

A random hangar find engine would be going to Aircraft Specialties not Lycoming. Just a different level of play.
I don't think that local shops would give near the core value that Lycoming would. Factory engines are legally new engines (if you pay).

I've done lots of automotive cores and you can basically send in anything, but a $20 caliper != $7000 engine credit, I just don't think engine sellers realize this, or they hope that buyers are naive enough to.

Even my local FBO A&P who is kinda shady, I don't think is going to hand out core credit without getting a running unit with logs. If they rebuild it, they still have the liability on it and accepting junk parts for credits is not a way to stay in business long.
 

TFF

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A local shop is going to want to use your engine. If you are trying to sell a core you own for cash, it’s worth whatever someone will pay on barnstormers.

There was one engine on barnstormers some odd designation. The engine went straight into the ground in a crash. Hub was folded over 90 deg. It went for about $6000 because that data tag was worth that. Someone on another forum bought it and was happy to find it. certified plane without the right engine on the front is parts

Everything under the tag is a part. Profit rebuilding an engine at a price requires stuff to be reused. Lycoming will throw everything away for quality control. Their reputation rides on that. You can literally get a new engine from them as an overhaul. A regular shop can’t do that. Value of a wrecked engine like that doesn’t happened very often.

To know what your engine is worth is free market. Book core values are there to make sure you turn an engine in. If it was only a couple of thousand, I would have payed the penalty my self and had a stack of engines. We turned in great engines. Airplanes are not scrapped at the same rate as cars. Less inventory and because of usage the quality has to be higher or it’s not useable.
 

pfarber

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Lycoming will throw everything away for quality control.
I was told many moons ago that cases and cranks were used after testing if within serviceable specs. Even for a zero timed engine, as if the part, ANY part, meets factory new dimensions, it can be used as new. Not sure how true that is, but it sounds legit because that's what you are buying, a crank with journals at X dimension. The log book makes it a zero time engine, not the actual time on the parts.
 

TFF

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They don’t often, but remember they have to deliver the product. They also make not just rebuild. If they really need a case that is not in the shelf, they will grab a new one. Crank, same. Crank too, have been upgraded, turn in certain ones and they just junk them. About twenty years ago Lycoming got smart. They stopped selling used parts to rebuilders. Selling those parts put them in a disadvantage in the market. Made them the only game in town until Superior and ECI started making clones.

I have received new cases and new cranks. Not on the same engine, but there is something you can tell when you get an engine from them. A friend who use to work for an OEM said the overhauls Lycoming supplies actually have closer tolerances than new. Not that they are skimping, just more attention. Each work station has two people. One is lead on new engines and the other is helper; they reverse the roles on the rebuilt/ overhauls.

More riding on the overhaul because the person buying is personally selecting that choice. Problem is getting unhappy people one on one. OEM it’s bought as a package. Pissed owner, but directed to a different ear.

There is new, rebuilt , and overhaul. New has to be new. Rebuilt is Zero timed at the factory only. All the parts have to meet new measurements. Overhaul has to meet overhaul measurements. Don’t confuse manufacturers overhaul requirements to the FAAs. Manufacturers add stuff for their liability. FAA says if it measures its good.

My crank was standard bearings. It could have gone in an overhaul legitimately. The measurements were as close to the edge as one could. Looking at the numbers I could have put standard bearings in, but they were only .0005” from being the start of .003 under. Polish and make it undersize or leave and stay standard. Which way would an unscrupulous overhaul go? Like before I went to .006 for some other issues added in. Of course undersize bearing are double price of standard.
 
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