Anyone have a Zenith 701 or similar, on floats, that they land at high altitude on tiny lakes?

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davidb

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In California you have to find out who has jurisdiction over the lake. If it is the state then it has to have a designated seaplane base. Loon lake is controlled by SMUD and they allow seaplanes. We know this because someone did the leg work to find out. Same with other lakes in the SPA directory. If you have a lake in mind that is not listed you will have to do the leg work yourself. A lake that doesn’t allow IC engines is obviously strictly controlled and probably won’t allow electric ULs but you could ask the controlling agency.

There are some beaches that allow dune buggies and such so a paramotor should be okay at those places. I wouldn’t even ask for permission at places like Pizmo beach. Of course, most beaches are strictly controlled and a lot of the coast line is federal marine sanctuary so those areas will be off limits to paramotors.

Just for the exercise let’s pick a spot you’d like to operate from and let’s see if we can figure out who has jurisdiction and if we can get permission.
 

davidb

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From a quick google search, Loch Leven lakes are in the Tahoe National Forrest which is under the jurisdiction of the USDA Forrest Service. If I had a desire to land there I’d call the ranger station and advise them of my intention. I wouldn’t ask for permission but rather see if they say it’s prohibited. My guess is that it is not prohibited. Seaplane operations are generally permitted in USDA FS areas.
 

wktaylor

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for fun. I stumbled over this... Lake Agnes, Alberta Canada... Lake Agnes Teahouse

Google Maps

Appears to have relatively flat approaches [except tall trees], both ends... and I've estimated ~400-ft widest X 1200-to-1400-ft length.. with a tourist facility and hiking trail around it. It is also [somewhat] adjacent to the much larger lake Louise.
 

TheToad

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a bunch of people Poo-poo'ing the 701... Yet when I look up the 701 specs and the highlander/superstol specs, the 701 is far and away the winner... Higher climb rate, lower stall speed, lighter weight, higher G-load rating, shorter takeoff roll, shorter landing roll... Am I missing something? Both specs are with the same engine, of course I'd be using something with a ton more power...

Zenith

Just Aircraft
 

TheToad

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The videos I've seen make the zenith numbers seem conservative, and the Just Aircraft numbers seem like they don't even wanna sell any planes... I've seen tons of zenith vids where they're taking off in less than 100', fully loaded, at like 8,000ft a few even on floats doing it in not much more... And the Highlander vids are about the same... Though haven't seen one on floats yet....
 

wktaylor

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TT... Everything changes at high density altitude with short fields, rising/close terrain, erratic weather and winds, human factors, fuel vapor, engine performance, cooling, pax/payloads, legal/insurance issues, rescue, etc. And... most notably... and dangerously... ground speed diverges from airspeed, IE: ground speed increases for the same relative airspeed.

OK, Now add-in water landings and takeoffs and the extra drag of floats and rudders and variable water-surface conditions, relative to balloon tires with anti-friction bearings. Every boater knows that the power difference, for the same hull, between 20-knots and 30-knots is substantial... and water drag doesn't change with altitude. Hull [float] drag will increase-up-to step transition... due to the higher surface speeds required to attain take-off airspeed.

However, as an aero engineer, I'm not saying it can't be done.

Get trained first, for this kind of flying from steely-eyed pros for high-mountains and back-country airfields. Gain a real understanding/insight into the evident and subtle and unique problems of this kind of flying. Enthusiasm and guessing is a terrible way to plan and design the suitable air/water craft for this environment.

Bye.
 
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Marc W

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I suppose anything is possible on Youtube. There are or have been three Zenith 750's(one crashed last summer) in my area and a couple 701's. My home airport is at 5190'msl. I have yet to see any of the Zeniths demonstrate such dazzling performance. In fact, on a warm day they are marginal two seat aircraft for a couple of well fed Americans.
 

REVAN

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a bunch of people Poo-poo'ing the 701... Yet when I look up the 701 specs and the highlander/superstol specs, the 701 is far and away the winner... Higher climb rate, lower stall speed, lighter weight, higher G-load rating, shorter takeoff roll, shorter landing roll... Am I missing something? Both specs are with the same engine, of course I'd be using something with a ton more power...

Zenith

Just Aircraft
At a quick glance: the Super STOL has up to almost double the useful load of the 701. That's significant, especially when you want to put them on floats, or amphibs.
 

Victor Bravo

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They are both great airplanes. I stand by the statement that the SuperSTOL has a better chance of operating out of that tiny lake than the Zenith.

Our EAA chapter is building a Zenith Cruzer now, and I very much like them, and would very much want to have the 701 or 750 STOL version. However, the SuperSTOL is genuinely optimized for more extreme STOL capability than the Zeniths.

The Zeniths are like a utility off-road adventure Jeep that you can use for a back-woods camping trip, and the SuperSTOL is like a competition rock-crawler that comes in to the competition on a trailer. That's not a perfect analogy, because the SuperSTOL can be used as a normal sportplane as well as for the "extreme" stuff.

Find the video of Steve Henry in one of the early Highlanders taking off and landing on small peaks. He earned the nickname "Dead Stick Steve" during the time these videos were being made, which is about 5-7 years ago and TWO generations of airplane before the SuperSTOL.

When you are watching all the really cool youtube videos of STOL competitions, the Alaska Valdez STOL competition, the "incredible" takeoffs and landings, see if you can find a windsock in any of those videos :)
 

wktaylor

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Hope this isn't a 'senior moment repeat'...

A few years back, Bear Gryls [?]... Ex Brit special forces with his own survival TV show... is well-known for parachuting into the starting locations for his adventures.

One time he parachuted into a high altitude mountain lake on a hot day... and even he was... or at least appeared-to-be... caught off-guard with his abnormally high rate of forward speed and descent rate. Hence, he wisely chose to land in the lake sorta close to the shore, as opposed to the shoreline-clearing where he was originally aiming. I'm pretty sure he opted to get wet and opposed to breaking bones.
 
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