Another airliner missing

Discussion in 'Hangar Flying' started by Alan Waters, Dec 29, 2014.

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  1. Feb 13, 2015 #321

    Toobuilder

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    After takeoff, one engine had a thrust reverser deployed indication so they secured the engine and returned to land (heavy). On the approach, the pilot switched throttle levers and mistakenly brought one of the good engines to idle, leaving him with only 2. Watch the video and pay attention to the throttle position graphic. He clearly switched from the good engine to the bad. Really simple mistake that destroyed the aircraft.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2015
  2. Feb 13, 2015 #322

    rv6ejguy

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    Seems there are a number of crashes with 3 pilots in the cockpit and often one being a check pilot... this one, USAF C-5, AF, Asiana. Too many cooks in the kitchen and poor CRM.
     
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  3. Feb 13, 2015 #323

    SVSUSteve

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    The Turkish airlines crash at Amsterdam was another example. It was a check ride for the copilot.
     
  4. Feb 13, 2015 #324

    BBerson

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    I watched a two seat glider land short in the bushes.
    The occupants were a commercial glider pilot and a glider instructor with plenty of experience.
    I suppose they both thought the other guy was flying.

    That wouldn't happen with an instructor and a first time student.
    Maybe the FAA should require a new student with no aviation training at all fly in the left seat. :gig:
     
  5. Feb 13, 2015 #325

    StarJar

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    Or just take passenger and give him/her a pamphlet that explains "shut down the engine that quit, if an engine quits." Then have a special seat for him/her right in front of the throttle quadrant.

    But like I said earlier, it is counter-intuitive, to reduce power on the lagging side.
    If I were a twin pilot, I would develop the habit of physically pointing to the bad engine, and then grabbing the throttle on that side.

    Actually, just a side story, but I once I got a free ride along with a Doctor who owned a 421. We were on a 1 mile final, and the right engine decided to quit. Gratefully, he was as smooth as silk in recovering, although I remeber he did drop the mic to the floor, that he was talking on. Who cares about the **** mic, anyway?:gig:
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2015
  6. Feb 14, 2015 #326

    Alan Waters

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  7. Feb 14, 2015 #327

    BJC

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    On a turbine engine with automatic feathering, what is the appropriate response upon lack of thrust? Can it be as simple as simply verifying that the propeller has feathered, engine not on fire, and leaving the power lever forward?


    BJC
     
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  8. Feb 14, 2015 #328

    JamesG

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    Depends on what is wrong with it. You can never tell how/why the engine has quit or if the controller is functioning properly. It could be still dumping fuel into the burners, etc. Which is why all procedures state to cut the bad engine's throttle. Esp. if you want to attempt a restart.
     
  9. Jul 2, 2015 #329

    davidb

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  10. Dec 4, 2015 #330

    davidb

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  11. Dec 8, 2015 #331

    Richard6

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    Well I think the main problem and cause for this crash is right here on page 82 of the PDF.

    8.11.3 MODULES
    1. Ground Training
    A. Background.
    B. Definitions
    C. Causes of Aircraft Upset
    D. Aerodynamic & Aircraft Systems in relation with aircraft upset
    E. Recovery methods by considering various aircraft attitude and speed
    F. Post upset conditions

    2. Simulator
    A. Flight Training (included malfunctions)
    Practicing Nose High, Nose Low and High Bank Angle Recovery
    B. Debriefing
    An adequate post - flight critique will be accomplished.

    The aircraft operator advised the KNKT that the flight crew of PK - AXC had not
    received the upset recovery training on Airbus A320 training simulator


    Apparently the second in command had his control stick it full pull-up mode until the aircraft hit the water.

    These mechanically un-connected control sticks appear to be a problem with airbus. The other pilot has to press his "take control" button for over 40 seconds to take control away from the other pilot, who in this case, had no idea what he was doing.

    I heard a comment on one of the network news shows about this report, the gentleman was quite blunt, stating that the pilots had not received training on stall recovery because airbus said it would never happen.
     
  12. Dec 8, 2015 #332

    SVSUSteve

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    Isn't the 777 and 787 also fly by wire with the mechanical "feel" provided by the flight computer to limit excessive inputs? The differences between a Boeing and Airbus are pretty minimal honestly. Most of the pissing and moaning over which is better boils down to jingoistic crap.

    Even with direct cable connections, pilots still make that same mistake.

    Which gentleman was that? Because Airbus has been staunchly in favor of upset recovery and stall recovery training for as long as I have been involved in aviation safety. They have published multiple resources related to it. Most of the network news programs aviation talking heads aren't reliable. Then again, if the airline is too stupid to listen to the flight training division and instead relies upon the word of a rogue salesperson...there's bigger issues at play there.
     
  13. Dec 8, 2015 #333

    davidb

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    I think his point is it is not obvious (not in one's normal field of view) which way the pilot flying is moving the side stick. The side sticks are not mechanically connected to each other. The Boeing yokes are mechanically connected to each other. Thus, it is obvious in a Boeing if the pilot flying is making inappropriate control inputs and not obvious in an A320.
     
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  14. Dec 8, 2015 #334

    mcrae0104

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    Baloney. You can't just gloss over substantive differences and dismiss those who disagree as jingoists.
     
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  15. Dec 8, 2015 #335

    davidb

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    Actually, as soon as one presses the take priority button, that stick is immediately in control. Holding it continuously for 40 seconds locks the other stick out in the case of a stick malfunction. After 40 seconds, one can release the button and still maintain the priority. The captain pushed the button twice, once for 2 seconds and once for 5 seconds. During those brief periods he had priority, but as soon as he released it, they reverted back to the dual input situation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2015
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  16. Dec 8, 2015 #336

    bmcj

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    Isn't part of the difference between the two the degree to which the pilot is allowed to override the computer automation?
     
  17. Dec 8, 2015 #337

    davidb

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    At the beginning of this thread we were all speculating on the weather playing a role in this accident. The report completely dismisses weather as a factor. Who'd have thought it was just another case of someone lacking basic attitude instrument flying skills. Sure, there was a lot of distractions and confusion, but inadequately trained "pilots" from certain regions of the world seems to be a big problem. No need to bad mouth the A320...that airplane was flyable by a properly trained pilot. Stall training, unusual attitude recovery training, and CRM aside, basic flying skills were not there in the right seat.
     

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