# AMPERe One stroke engine

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#### PMD

##### Well-Known Member
Can we leave out the FUD about batteries please? It contributes nothing of value.
Considering that they are exceedingly high pollutant sources and dangerous is so many other ways - but most of all taking us down a path that is VERY wrong that could have profound effects on general aviation - I think the battery thing contributes a great deal of value to our values.

##### Well-Known Member
Considering that they are exceedingly high pollutant sources and dangerous is so many other ways - but most of all taking us down a path that is VERY wrong that could have profound effects on general aviation - I think the battery thing contributes a great deal of value to our values.
Exceedingly high pollutant sources?
Dangerous in so many ways?
A path that is VERY wrong?
Batteries having a profound (and by implication negative) effects on general aviation?

Pure unsubstantiated FUD.

I don't know what axe you're grinding, and I don't really care.

#### tspear

##### Well-Known Member

PMD has shown the same axe to grind on most threads where electric airplanes or power train are discussed.

Tim

#### cheapracer

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
Leave the virtue signalling BS aside until decent alternative energy storage is commercial and deal with the REAL problems.
LOL, you know NOTHING about me, I also build ICE race cars on the side, the only thing green about me is a pair of socks I own.

PS: You bought up the subject, maybe have a little chat to yourself about that.

#### PMD

##### Well-Known Member
Exceedingly high pollutant sources?
Dangerous in so many ways?
A path that is VERY wrong?
Batteries having a profound (and by implication negative) effects on general aviation?

Pure unsubstantiated FUD.

I don't know what axe you're grinding, and I don't really care.
let me spell it out for you
- According to the US NRC and Academy of Science (IIRC the correct name) in their testimony to a US Senate committee (I believe 2009) - THE most polluting thing you can do in powering transportation is mine Lithium for BEVs. The places where it is extracted as far as I can see have done little to protect the environment in 2009 or 2021. There are some serious questions regarding end-of-life and return to service environmental issues.

-ask a firefighter what they can do when encountering a burning BEV or plug-in. Something that can take down a 777 with a few ounces of battery is something you want in a transportation device in the TONS????? Also, adding a half ton or more to the weight in potentially pyro material in even a small vehicle has serious implications of the amount of energy delivered in a collission (from a mass perspective) and to a possible ensuing conflagration. (yes, one of the reasons I greatly prefer diesel over gasoline for fuel in any kind of transportation).

- the path this whole electric boondoggle is taking us down is devising far more ways to continue doing more of the things that are getting us to the level of unsustainability with our lifestyle (and business style). To begin with, there is not nearly enough Lithium reserves known or forecast to be able to make LiPo batteries to cover our basic transportation needs. We need to be doing LESS of what we do not more. Making carbon emissions into the ultimate boogeyman takes focus away from the real problem - we have polluted our oceans to the level where they can no longer absorb the carbon that anthropomorphic and "natural" emissions produce. If we are to go to electric as a propulsion option, we need energy storage densities something like 50x better than current battery technology - so why turn to a technology that is doomed to failure (the answer has a lot to do with )

-the electric nonsense is wasting the precious few resources available to develop newer/better general aviation propulsion systems. Adding a half ton of battery to a Cherokee is about the most ridiculous thing one could imagine (so if we are talking about immature technologies - learning how to generate and safely store hydrogen is an example of where we SHOULD be going - to fuel either electric or ICE prime movers.

#### tspear

##### Well-Known Member
@PMD

You cherry pick information and arguments and then proceed to utilize logical facilities starting with reductio ad absurdum.
Your stances and arguments are well known, and have been posted in multiple threads, and they have been addressed multiple times.
So, please come up with some new points, I do like to argue.

Tim

#### AOG

##### Member
As far as I kow the only semi-succesful one stroke motor powered the german V-1.
Test pilots refused to fly the man controlled version.
I had a student that built one out of Titanium, while he was still in HS. It was a valveless pulsejet, no moving parts, loud and glowed like an electric stove on high. Comparing Buzz rocket to a piston one stroke is like comparing a recip to a turbine in operating theory. But thanks for the memory. By the way, he went on to become an engineer in the GE turbine division.

#### JMyers1

##### Well-Known Member
Is it possible to invest with shares of another company? I have a bunch of Moller stock, i don’t want it in my garage anymore.

#### JMyers1

##### Well-Known Member
let me spell it out for you
- According to the US NRC and Academy of Science (IIRC the correct name) in their testimony to a US Senate committee (I believe 2009) - THE most polluting thing you can do in powering transportation is mine Lithium for BEVs. The places where it is extracted as far as I can see have done little to protect the environment in 2009 or 2021. There are some serious questions regarding end-of-life and return to service environmental issues.

-ask a firefighter what they can do when encountering a burning BEV or plug-in. Something that can take down a 777 with a few ounces of battery is something you want in a transportation device in the TONS????? Also, adding a half ton or more to the weight in potentially pyro material in even a small vehicle has serious implications of the amount of energy delivered in a collission (from a mass perspective) and to a possible ensuing conflagration. (yes, one of the reasons I greatly prefer diesel over gasoline for fuel in any kind of transportation).

- the path this whole electric boondoggle is taking us down is devising far more ways to continue doing more of the things that are getting us to the level of unsustainability with our lifestyle (and business style). To begin with, there is not nearly enough Lithium reserves known or forecast to be able to make LiPo batteries to cover our basic transportation needs. We need to be doing LESS of what we do not more. Making carbon emissions into the ultimate boogeyman takes focus away from the real problem - we have polluted our oceans to the level where they can no longer absorb the carbon that anthropomorphic and "natural" emissions produce. If we are to go to electric as a propulsion option, we need energy storage densities something like 50x better than current battery technology - so why turn to a technology that is doomed to failure (the answer has a lot to do with )

-the electric nonsense is wasting the precious few resources available to develop newer/better general aviation propulsion systems. Adding a half ton of battery to a Cherokee is about the most ridiculous thing one could imagine (so if we are talking about immature technologies - learning how to generate and safely store hydrogen is an example of where we SHOULD be going - to fuel either electric or ICE prime movers.
This post will not age well.

#### Dusan

##### Well-Known Member
@PMD

For the same weight, the energy contained in fuel is 40 times more than in a lithium battery, as a fact.

About the one stroke engine - vaporware.

#### JMyers1

##### Well-Known Member
@PMD

For the same weight, the energy contained in fuel is 40 times more than in a lithium battery, as a fact.

About the one stroke engine - vaporware.
To be fair, you have to include the efficiency of the mechanism used to extract the energy. Electric motors are more efficient, lighter, and cheaper. Still doesn’t close the gap, but it gives a more realistic number and explains why some electric cars have a longer range than some gas cars.

I don’t think we’re seeing long range electric aircraft anytime soon (or maybe ever), but for shorter range trainers I think they will eventually replace the entire piston fleet.

#### tspear

##### Well-Known Member
I don’t think we’re seeing long range electric aircraft anytime soon (or maybe ever), but for shorter range trainers I think they will eventually replace the entire piston fleet.
A lot of mechanics, and paper industry is supported by the effort required to keep those old C172s in the air. If electric does make serious inroads on the training fleet, I wonder what/how will happen to the already shrinking number of mechanic shops.

Tim

#### PMD

##### Well-Known Member
A lot of mechanics, and paper industry is supported by the effort required to keep those old C172s in the air. If electric does make serious inroads on the training fleet, I wonder what/how will happen to the already shrinking number of mechanic shops.

Tim
I think this takes us into yet another critical discussion: exactly what is the future of general aviation? In my earlier years I lived in the bush and a light single was simply your daily transportation ('70s and '80s). It was possible for someone on even a modest income level to be able to buy a new airplane for recreation, sport or utility. Those days are gone and we are still flying the same damned airplanes!

The world of electric airplanes (if they can ever be made practical) does seem to fit at some time in the future into the training function, but is this all that is left of genav is to train people who will go on to fly airliners????

For North America (and to some extent Yurp) IMHO the secret is to get the costs of insurance and the LLL (Legal Liability Lottery) out of the way. That was supposed to be part of the LSA thing but that just didn't play out that way. LPA maybe? Wish I could see where this is going and how to get it back on track.

#### Dan Thomas

##### Well-Known Member
A lot of mechanics, and paper industry is supported by the effort required to keep those old C172s in the air. If electric does make serious inroads on the training fleet, I wonder what/how will happen to the already shrinking number of mechanic shops.

Tim
It's already happening. I worked briefly in a shop that was losing fully qualified mechanics to diesel shops that paid more, and where the liability and threat of enforcements was minimal. Aircraft mechanics get tired of being squeezed between the feds and cheapskate aircraft owners. And of being forever criticized by people who don't know how little they know.

Edit: There are also fewer young people going into aircraft maintenance. They are scared by the liability and the law. And the whole trades sector is suffering anyway.

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#### pylon500

##### Well-Known Member
Lithium
Coal charging
Nuclear waste
Finite oil

The woes of technology...
That's it, I'm buying a horse, just hope it can run fast enough to launch my glider.
Horse: Energy system= 24hour one stroke, (fuel intake, 24 hour power conversion, exhaust) =1 horse power.

#### PMD

##### Well-Known Member
The woes of technology...
That's it, I'm buying a horse, just hope it can run fast enough to launch my glider.
Horse: Energy system= 24hour one stroke, (fuel intake, 24 hour power conversion, exhaust) =1 horse power.
A pet horse uses a LOT of resource to generate it's one HP and emits far more methane than any EPA certified motor vehicle would be allowed. Wild horses have a lot less environmental impact - but a bit harder to ride.