Airplane for the Common Denominator

[challenger_II]

TDM: As my grandmother used to say: "If you can't be positive here, be negative somewhere else!"
The entire purpose of this thread is to inspire positive constructive spirit in devising a home-built concept that may just be in the reach of "the common man".

 

[Pops]

How many single seaters have baggage capacity for more than a toothbrush? If you cant even commute in one, that pretty much brings it solidly back to "toy" category.

The useful load with full fuel of the JMR is 300 lbs for a max of 50 lbs in the baggage area. Pilot of 250 lbs= 50lbs in the baggage area. Pilot of 275lbs= 25lbs in the baggage area.

 

[Tom DM]

TDM: As my grandmother used to say: "If you can't be positive here, be negative somewhere else!"
The entire purpose of this thread is to inspire positive constructive spirit in devising a home-built concept that may just be in the reach of "the common man".

Since ancient time bad news or a problem has always been solved by demonizing the bringer of the news, by flatly denying it or -indeed- by inspiring positive spirits while dancing round a pole or such.

It might be too far fetched as but there is this book (a paper thing with pages and letters on them) in which the author describes a whale falling for the sky. While it hurdles down, it sees the Earth... "What is that? Why is the wind whisseling so hard? Will that thing coming up to me so fast be my friend?"

I am a big fan of that Book ( B is not a typo)... and with all respect to your granny: we did not meet and there is all reason to believe we never will. Your point being?

 

[TFF]

I think you have your experiences, but they do not match the US ones. Physics of flying is the same. Culture of planes is not. Culture is not. I have a friend who spent years flying UN missions with European pilots. During his time off they would follow him back to the US and get US licenses to fly the N numbered US planes because the EU planes were constantly having EU issues. Nothing to do with anything but be in the way. All governments love entropy; easiest way to control the masses. US has some of the least amount of entropy.

European ULs do not translate to the US. Back to the culture. It’s a license that was thrust upon us by the EU by treaty. It does two things here, allows people in poor health a way to fly and it got rid of the pt 103 training in two seaters. It’s kind of messed up both ways. That’s it. It cost more here, it imposes limits that we don’t naturally have. We are not herded into the category like some child like in Europe. It does not make economic sense in ownership except fuel burn in the US. All the EU rules to keep you safe are really to keep you on the ground.

I know someone in Germany flying N numbered aircraft. He has a German license too. He will be flying and be asked to do something German, he comes back with, I am flying N numbered aircraft xyz and because of treaty bla bla I do not have to comply with that request. The controllers know he is right. That’s why people have N numbered planes in the EU, to stop the stupid.

 

[challenger_II]

TDM: interesting reference. By the by, the same author also describes how to learn to fly successfully. That would seem to counter-point your reference.

As to my point, which you DID ask for, is that this thread was started to get interested parties together to brainstorm What Is a Home-Built Design for this purpose.
We have all heard the naysayers before, and we are well versed in their particular refrain. If you, personally, believe the task is impossible you are welcome to your belief. We, on the other hand, will proceed down the road towards Success. We may find it, we may not. However, we are at least making the effort!

 

[Dan Thomas]

And now reality: General aviation is a very limited group, homebuild aircraft are -certainly in Europ but I suspect also in the US- a fraction of that.

Not all pilots are builders which implicates that your advice: "go build and fly" will lead to a certain number of disappointments -projects not finished- but also to sub-standard aircraft. These in turn will lead to accidents and deaths.

Comparing the US (and Canada) to the EU is bogus, and even then you exaggerate. There are far more homebuilts registered every year in the US than type-certified GA airplanes. Many of them are kits, which reduces the chance of dangerous errors in design or construction. Even at that, when I was young it was mostly scratch-building, and there were many successful designs built and flown by amateur builders. These airplanes are inspected at various stages of construction to catch the worst offenders.

As with most of general aviation, it's pilot error that kills people. Pilot Error. Remember that. People do dumb things like run out of fuel or fly into clouds that have mountains inside them or they lose control because they aren't IFR-trained. They do stupid stuff like buzz a friends house, or the runway, showing off, then pull up hard enough to get an accelerated stall and they spin in and die before they realize what they did to deserve that. Profound ignorance of load factor and stalls. They die when they crash because they didn't know the basic physics and management of carb ice. And sometimes they crash because they did not maintain their airplanes, being too cheap or too complacent about it.

And Pilot Error is every bit as much of a factor in certified airplanes as in homebuilts, maybe even more so, since the homebuilder is more likely to be careful with the machine he built than the renter who doesn't much care about the airplane that belongs to someone else.

Do you have any pilot licensing or flight time at all? Or maintenance or building experience? Anything? This world looks a lot different from the inside than from the outside.

 

[Bigshu]

It does two things here, allows people in poor health a way to fly and it got rid of the pt 103 training in two seaters.

Well, poor health by the FAAs definition. How many accidents each year are caused by pilot incapacitation? Darn few. Nobody is at risk but the pilot in part 103, if doing it right. Worrying about training is just more gatekeeping. Some training would be smart, but the number of idiots who just jump in and go (judging by you tube videos) and survive means these aircraft are so simple and basic in performance that the bare minimum of skill and training seems to suffice. People who know what they're doing will advise the untrained about the wisdom of getting some, not sure where you could just show up with an ultralight and go fly without some knowledgeable person poking their nose in, just to check out the aircraft.

 

[TFF]

I’m flying on basic med because I refuse to get a medical without loosing some weight and was railroaded for completely other reasons the last time I got one that a specialist proved I didn’t have. I’m just noting how LSA is used in the US. Good or bad is up to the user. I don’t want it taken away. I don’t want it to be where the government shoehorns the population to be able to fly, which is what they did in Europe. In Europe, it is being given lemons and making lemonade. We already have the lemonade chilled ready to drink, I don’t want them to make us put the juice back in the fruit.

 

[Hot Wings]

It’s a license that was thrust upon us by the EU by treaty.

Not quite sure if you are talking about LSA or non-USA ultralights? Trolls Don't Matter

LSA was originally to be a USA only thing to help revitalize the US industry. It didn't take long before the FAA ASTM representatives* more or less forced us to include EASA members. Once we had EASA involved then we had to consider the ramifications of the treaty(s) and the wants of other CAAs. The whole thing took on a different 'flavor' after that. The A in ASTM originally stood for American. Times change..........

* I objected to the inclusion of FAA members because it went against the intent of the congress/OMB to replace bureaucratic rule making with an industry consensus standard system just a few years before the final NPRM.

 

[Tom DM]

Comparing the US (and Canada) to the EU is bogus, and even then you exaggerate. There are far more homebuilts registered every year in the US than type-certified GA airplanes. Many of them are kits, which reduces the chance of dangerous errors in design or construction. Even at that, when I was young it was mostly scratch-building, and there were many successful designs built and flown by amateur builders. These airplanes are inspected at various stages of construction to catch the worst offenders.

snip


Do you have any pilot licensing or flight time at all? Or maintenance or building experience? Anything? This world looks a lot different from the inside than from the outside.

These airplanes (Homebuilds) are inspected at various stages and the inspections are such that that mayor variations pass and/or stay unaccounted for. Cases of projects bought from another builder, containing severe errors and resulting in (best case) scrapping il all , worser case major damage and loss of life exist and are documented. On paper identical aircrafts yet 20-30% weight differance , an expermental acrobatic aircraft desintegrating around its builder 4000 ft AGL, an aircraft folding its wings on the first testflight... What is the finishing rate of started homebuilt projects? How many on budget (time or money)?

As to my own humble experience: about 1000 hr of flight which 900 on 3 experimental classed aircraft ( which I own since ± 15 years). 2 are metal and recent (1992/2004), one is wood (1962), the composite Orion Grivalds has not yet flown (90% done so 90% to go)
I hold an Easa PPL (A) and the US-counterpart (required to fly N-registered aircrafts in Europe) and an aerobatic endorsement. I guess that makes me a rather typical good-weather VFR-pilot. I fly mainly in Europe (about 1500 NM around Brussels) but flew my own aircraft in the US.

I am my own boss and fit not well in hierarchic organizations, I prefer being a consultant for a specific task and move on after execution. My business started as a professional racer + shop some 30 years back (it resembles aviation: pure luxury, money destruction, attracts a certain kind of people and limits are pushed) It became a hobby and 3 others were founded or taken over : an engineering/ consultancy company, an IT-company and an automatisation company. These employ today 20 people of which half are university schooled in technical fields. I am of those lucky guys who made a living by following dreams in hindsight sometimes with disregard of reason and personal safety. I suppose the younger one is, the more immortal he feels. From my racing days somehow 14 special cars (1990-2000) refused to leave and from a part which can not be sold (to the anger of some . 90% of my actual time goes into the engineering and automation company. I do not sleep a lot.

Some projects may (never ) come to fruition, one of them concerns aviation. The money is there , so no banks needed yet major concerns about the risks, the unhealthy environment, the kind of people/ standards and what happened to predecessors. Some 8 years ago a take-over a GA-shop was proposed (I knew the deceased owner well) and we did an extensive prepurchase evalutation. Long story short: we ran, simply could not believe what we encountered.

Over a career of 33 years I deplore 1 major failure, linked to trusting people while insufficient controlling if they could back the talk up. It resulted in a special year with work weeks of 80 hours while blowing a mayor budget of my own cold cash. 2 things retained: trust is good, control is better and being correct is more difficult than being friendly.

This is my world, what is yours and is your curiosity satisfied?

 

[Dan Thomas]

These airplanes (Homebuilds) are inspected at various stages and the inspections are such that that mayor variations pass and/or stay unaccounted for. Cases of projects bought from another builder, containing severe errors and resulting in (best case) scrapping il all , worser case major damage and loss of life exist and are documented. On paper identical aircrafts yet 20-30% weight differance , an expermental acrobatic aircraft desintegrating around its builder 4000 ft AGL, an aircraft folding its wings on the first testflight... What is the finishing rate of started homebuilt projects? How many on budget (time or money)?

Lousy inspections if such major flaws are overlooked. But it can happen: My first airplane was a ground-damaged homebuilt Taylor Monoplane that had only six hours on it. It had massive wash-in on the right wing that would have required full right aileron just to stay upright. And the glue was urea-formaldehyde that had been used in a cold workshop so that it didn't set properly, and I found that I could pick some stuff apart far too easily. I scrapped it. Second airplane was a Falconar AMF-S-14 Maranda project that was set aside when I bought the Auster that I had been towing gliders with for a couple of summers until another pilot damaged it in a forced landing. That project was sold when our son was born and Mom stayed home to look after him and the budget just didn't cover airplanes. Fourth airplane was a Jodel D-11 I restored and flew for over 20 years.

This is my world, what is yours and is your curiosity satisfied?

I was a commercial pilot and held IFR and Flight Instructor ratings. I was an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (Canadian aircraft mechanic). Taught flying and Aircraft Systems in a College-based flight training program., and was Director of Maintenance for the schools AMO. Then worked for a couple more outfits, doing just maintenance. Retired now.

 

[Bigshu]

How many on budget (time or money)?

Not really a factor in most builds. It can certainly affect completion rates, but as long as you don't run out of time or money, who cares?

 

[Toobuilder]

Tom DM. All I can say is that you are seriously out of touch with the American homebuilt scene.

 

[Regdor]

What data set is used to determine what is "The Common Man"....Without that
there can be no solution that fits his wants or needs.....This forum likely contains elements from the larger aviation public and it is evident that the only
thing in common is aviation.....

 

[challenger_II]

Sometimes, not even that.
Initial post, TT attempted to lay out the basics, and get a consensus. I do not believe he truly comprehended the concept of "Herding Cats".

 

[Tiger Tim]

Sometimes it’s fun to sew a little constructive chaos on a rainy day. I have an idea for a real duesey of a thread I’m saving to drop on y’all when the time is right…

 

[Tom DM]

Tom DM. All I can say is that you are seriously out of touch with the American homebuilt scene.

Too Builder: Zhong Gou, the Middle Country...

There is indeed a very different scene at the other side of the pond while the "US homebuilt scene" seems not so uniform.

 

[Tom DM]

I was a commercial pilot and held IFR and Flight Instructor ratings. I was an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (Canadian aircraft mechanic). Taught flying and Aircraft Systems in a College-based flight training program., and was Director of Maintenance for the schools AMO. Then worked for a couple more outfits, doing just maintenance. Retired now.

Without any disrespect to your qualifications: in about 30 years of engineering / consultancy/ business owner (actif or "sleeping") I acknowledge that experience is indeed gold unless it is embedded in an attitude of all-knowing, closed minds, refusal of any change and -often- "do as I say, do not as I do"

Once people -whether staff, directors or owners- get in the last condition problems and solutions tend to be drastic. I have met/ meet "gods" in businesses: some overstated, some not but one got me very close to being killed. I did not like it one single bit and nearly rendered him the service.

As to retired people : they have the major bonus as they can speak their mind. The situations are numerous where companies disappeared because "oldies" left with a head full of knowledge which management ignored was there until too late.

 

[Dan Thomas]

As to retired people : they have the major bonus as they can speak their mind. The situations are numerous where companies disappeared because "oldies" left with a head full of knowledge which management ignored was there until too late.

I always spoke my mind. Aviation is too dangerous to let people go ahead and make mistakes. One of the Seven Learning Factors is Primacy, which says that things first learned are the most deeply ingrained, even if they're wrong. As an instructor you never let a new student make a mistake. He gets the impression that it's permissible, and will go on to fly like that. In Transport Canada's Flight Instructor Guide it says this:

While the student is performing an exercise, supervise the actions very closely. Stop the student as soon as any performance error is noticed and teach the correct method. Close supervision means - NEVER allow a student to make an error during the initial stages of training. Think of how you would go about training a student to defuse a live bomb.

As far as retirees taking knowledge away, that also happens when CEOs decide to lay off the most expensive workers: the experienced ones. They, in their MBA wisdom, think that workers are all the same, so the younger, cheaper ones are as good as the old guys. They pay for that foolishness with decreasing profitability. MBA students should have to work for at least two years in the real world as part of their early education. But they don't, and their knowledge is entirely academic and has little relation to the other side: reality.

 

[Bill-Higdon]

I always spoke my mind. Aviation is too dangerous to let people go ahead and make mistakes. One of the Seven Learning Factors is Primacy, which says that things first learned are the most deeply ingrained, even if they're wrong. As an instructor you never let a new student make a mistake. He gets the impression that it's permissible, and will go on to fly like that. In Transport Canada's Flight Instructor Guide it says this:

While the student is performing an exercise, supervise the actions very closely. Stop the student as soon as any performance error is noticed and teach the correct method. Close supervision means - NEVER allow a student to make an error during the initial stages of training. Think of how you would go about training a student to defuse a live bomb.

As far as retirees taking knowledge away, that also happens when CEOs decide to lay off the most expensive workers: the experienced ones. They, in their MBA wisdom, think that workers are all the same, so the younger, cheaper ones are as good as the old guys. They pay for that foolishness with decreasing profitability. MBA students should have to work for at least two years in the real world as part of their early education. But they don't, and their knowledge is entirely academic and has little relation to the other side: reality.

I found the lack of real world Knowledge issue when I took some business classes back in the early 70's