# Aircraft *designs* available for sale?

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#### TFF

##### Well-Known Member
Homebuilt planes are homebuilt businesses. Vans really tips reality, and made a model that bucks against plans built. Homebuilts are Cottage industry like making do dads in your garage to sell at a flea market. The plans are do dads. Big business it is not. Just expensive do dads.

Although you might get some help with a designer, plans built really means on your own. Solve your own problems. Holes don’t line up, solve it. Incidence off, solve it. Change engine type, don’t call. Not because no one wants to help, but they are not in the shop. Your shop, your work. The plans usually are prototype design with improvements. Many times original does not fit the plans. Most designers are just like the people who buy the plans, budget builders. The only difference is they went ahead and did it their own way, and enough people wanted to copy that idea that it is easier to just buy plans. No magic.

#### Victor Bravo

##### Well-Known Member
I think Addicted2Climbing should immediately make arrangements to add the Zippy Sport to his company if Mr. Olenik wants to let it go.

This is a unique, attractive, and capable little airplane, which will appeal to the pilots and builders who may not be interested in the other UL and biplane designs he will be marketing.

A Zippy Sport with the O-100 engine would be fast, reliable, sexy, and efficient.

#### ScaleBirdsScott

##### Well-Known Member
I still kindof want a Micro Mong someday, has anyone taken up the mantle? Of course the Lil Bitts is nicer looking in many ways but the Mong's straight wings are just cute.

#### saini flyer

##### Well-Known Member
From James Wiebe's email:

Dear Belite / Chipper Fan,

We are very interested in talking to you if you are interested in our aircraft designs. Now you might finally have time to consider this!

We're offering six different flying aircraft or kits:

Chipper 2:
-- one pristine complete aircraft with airworthiness cert with new UL Power 130HP engine
-- two additional partially complete aircraft kits (also pristine)
-- CAD in Fusion 360 (.igs or .stl format CAD, easy transfer to solidworks)
-- design is ideal for further development into LSA / eLSA
-- design is ideal for development into tricycle gear (CAD already largely done)
-- ideal for kit sales
 Chipper SS​
 Chipper SS ultralight / single seat experimental: -- our demo plane (was flying, and was being refurbished when the fire hit last June) -- one additional pristine kit with carbon fiber spars -- CAD is in Sketchup​
 ProCub/UltraCub Ultralight​
 ProCub/UltraCub ultralight / single seat experimental: -- one flying aircraft with a mix of ProCub and UltraCub features, including carbon fiber Hoerner wingtips -- engine is Polini Thor 250, needs some easy work (or buy a new engine) -- CAD's a little rough, but super easy to engineer some upgrades from existing flying plane​

 ​
 SkyDock: The fuselage molds and wing molds for SkyDock were offsite, and are included as well! We also have one fully enclosed canopy for Skydock (never publicly shown!) Also included: -- Shopbot, 4'x8' bed, now back up and running with computer host included -- warehouse full of parts, such as: -- +/-$40,000 original value of aluminum -- (includes about 15 sheets of 3/4" 5' x 10' honeycomb aluminum) --$5,000 of AN hardware -- tools -- 20' aircraft trailer -- Much more!​
 Are you interested? Direct serious inquiries to info@beliteaircraft.com, and we'd enjoy talking to you." Kind Regards James & Kathy Wiebe Chipper Aerospace LLC​

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
Why the Zippy... Because I like the "Tailwindesque" style and the cruise performance. In some other thread I have read about Ed designing, but not completing a Zippy two seater. That would probably be my ideal plane. My requirements are something affordable but with decent cruise to make a couple 150 nm trips monthly by myself, but I'd like also to have the capability to take my daughter or a friend for local hops. I'm seeing the O-100 as a very promising affordable engine for a plane that only occasionally would take a passenger up. Maybe I could try to build a very light Tailwind with no electrics and succeed with an A-75 or a 2180 VW, but nobody goes that route with TWs so no real world data to check.
Keep the great work and maybe we can convince Ed to finish the Zippy 2 project!
I just had a look at my response to you and while the zippy was an error from when it crashed during my reply. Seems it added it anyhow and funny you answered it. Anyhow, I am not too familiar with where and who owns all of Ed's legacy designs. Is the Zippy owned by someone not wanting to continue with keeping it relevant? I know Mark Klotz owns the flitplane rights but lately his website has been down. Unsure what is going on there. I like that your looking into the O100 DP1 engine. I plan to put one in the Lil Bitts and also am working on a 2 place side by side skylite to use this engine as well. Ed actually started the skylite 2 plce design years ago but lost his drawings and notes in a fire. At the moment I am just working on widening the fuselage and lengthening it a bit in Solidworks and will run it by Ed when I have more done. Its priority #3 sadly due to so many other things I need to do, but I hope to get the design done by year end if all goes well. I am not at all familiar with the Zippy, but perhaps reach out to the current IP owner and take it over and make it what you want. You will never make nay real money with it, but I am treating it more as a labor of love more than anything else. Plus it keeps me always thinking...

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
From James Wiebe's email:

Dear Belite / Chipper Fan,

We are very interested in talking to you if you are interested in our aircraft designs. Now you might finally have time to consider this!

We're offering six different flying aircraft or kits:

Chipper 2:
-- one pristine complete aircraft with airworthiness cert with new UL Power 130HP engine
-- two additional partially complete aircraft kits (also pristine)
-- CAD in Fusion 360 (.igs or .stl format CAD, easy transfer to solidworks)
-- design is ideal for further development into LSA / eLSA
-- design is ideal for development into tricycle gear (CAD already largely done)
-- ideal for kit sales
 ​Chipper SS​
 Chipper SS ultralight / single seat experimental: -- our demo plane (was flying, and was being refurbished when the fire hit last June) -- one additional pristine kit with carbon fiber spars -- CAD is in Sketchup​
 ​ProCub/UltraCub Ultralight​
 ProCub/UltraCub ultralight / single seat experimental: -- one flying aircraft with a mix of ProCub and UltraCub features, including carbon fiber Hoerner wingtips -- engine is Polini Thor 250, needs some easy work (or buy a new engine) -- CAD's a little rough, but super easy to engineer some upgrades from existing flying plane​
 ​
 SkyDock: The fuselage molds and wing molds for SkyDock were offsite, and are included as well! We also have one fully enclosed canopy for Skydock (never publicly shown!) Also included: -- Shopbot, 4'x8' bed, now back up and running with computer host included -- warehouse full of parts, such as: -- +/-$40,000 original value of aluminum -- (includes about 15 sheets of 3/4" 5' x 10' honeycomb aluminum) --$5,000 of AN hardware -- tools -- 20' aircraft trailer -- Much more!​
 Are you interested? Direct serious inquiries to info@beliteaircraft.com, and we'd enjoy talking to you." Kind Regards James & Kathy Wiebe Chipper Aerospace LLC​
I traded emails with James a few months ago and he wants 300k for the lot... I do like his innovative thinking in many of his designs, but there was always something a bit funky about each so for me 300k seems a bit unattainable and unrealistic a figure...

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
I think Addicted2Climbing should immediately make arrangements to add the Zippy Sport to his company if Mr. Olenik wants to let it go.

This is a unique, attractive, and capable little airplane, which will appeal to the pilots and builders who may not be interested in the other UL and biplane designs he will be marketing.

A Zippy Sport with the O-100 engine would be fast, reliable, sexy, and efficient.
VB when you gonna stop by and see if you can squeeze into the Lil Bitts fuselage. I will need a demo pilot once its done... Oddly enough at 6'4" I fit, but need to modify the instrument panel a bit to give more leg clearance. Only issue is that my heels are already on the heel brakes and may need to sort that out. but by and large I fit which was a surprise. I fit better in the Bitts than I do in the Cygnet...

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
Pilgrim 69,

Ok now my question is did the guy and Green Sky Adventures mention that he was going to retire and the designs would be orphaned? I just went to his website and see he also has the Micro Mong and maybe I could reach out to him about getting both designs. I am sure there are many caryovers of parts between all Ed's design so it may make sense I support them as well. As I mentioned earlier, Ed offered me the full scale Mong biplane rights, but had to pass as I had just adopted a baby and my savings was pretty much descimated. In a bit different place now financialy and maybe its possible depending on how much he wants for the IP and what it comes with. So before I reach out to him, can I get more info from you as to how you know its going the way of the dodo... Or your welcome to PM me if you prefer. Also if you want to try for them first by all means do so.

For others wanting more info on the Skylite or Lil Bitts my website is below... Still a bit lacking in content but that will come in time.

Take care,

Marc

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
Get Tormach running or Lil Bitts first... Hmmmm

#### Victor Bravo

##### Well-Known Member
Jerry Olenik was Green Sky Adventures, who had bought the rights to the Zippy Sport. He was the importer for HKS engines. He passed away last year, and his son took over the HKS engine business. Someone in this thread had mentioned that the son was losing interest in the airplane side, and perhaps concentrating on the engines, so the discussion swerved to whether the Zippy rights would be on the market.

You'll have no trouble with me getting in to the Lil Bitts to try it on. You might have trouble convincing me to get out. I haven't flown a real Pitts in 25-30 years, and I never flew the S-1. But if your insurance company doesn't vomit I'd sure as hell get in it and fly it without hesitation (after a rather thorough preflightt ).

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
Jerry Olenik was Green Sky Adventures, who had bought the rights to the Zippy Sport. He was the importer for HKS engines. He passed away last year, and his son took over the HKS engine business. Someone in this thread had mentioned that the son was losing interest in the airplane side, and perhaps concentrating on the engines, so the discussion swerved to whether the Zippy rights would be on the market.

You'll have no trouble with me getting in to the Lil Bitts to try it on. You might have trouble convincing me to get out. I haven't flown a real Pitts in 25-30 years, and I never flew the S-1. But if your insurance company doesn't vomit I'd sure as hell get in it and fly it without hesitation (after a rather thorough preflightt ).
Hey VB I will call them tomorrow or Friday to have a chat with the son if possible. Will see where it goes.

#### ScaleBirdsScott

##### Well-Known Member
If you can get rights to the Mong and the 'Lil Bitts... that would indeed be a great opportunity to have both available to the same "level" of fit and finish. I'd certainly find some interest in one along the road.

#### crusty old aviator

##### Well-Known Member
Homebuilt planes are homebuilt businesses. Vans really tips reality, and made a model that bucks against plans built.
Van started out offering plans only, for the -3 and -4, and the plans weren’t selling that well. Then the kit boom started with composite wonders, like Glassair and Lancair, kits that cost around \$20K. It didn’t take Van long to figure out his birds performed just as well as theirs, and he could put together a material kit for less than half the cost of theirs, and people began to take notice, especially people who were comfortable with the idea of building an aluminum airplane, and wary of the “magic” of composites...and that seems to hold true today, as Zenair and Vans are selling more kits than all the composite kit makers are.

#### BJC

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Just to add a comment, for those newer to E-AB, to what Crusty wrote: Van’s early kits were, as Crusty said, material kits. They were not at all similar to today’s kits. Formed ribs and bulkheads were available, but were not usable without lots of straightening, not to mention that there were no holes for rivets. To quote a builder who was building an RV-8, after having built a -3 and a -6, “The new kits are great. Cleco it together, and start riveting.”

BJC

#### TFF

##### Well-Known Member
I believe Vans started making fittings pretty early. Still, it was a difficult build from scratch. The 3 was pretty but a one seater, and that has always had to deal with those issue. The 4 changed a lot. A different group could get in. The biggest seller that BMW has is in Europe is the M5 station wagon. Dad gets his sports car in the front, mom carries the kids in the back. Once the wife has her option to ride, money frees up, otherwise you keep the 172. The 6 made mom actually happy to go. It has also taken 50 years of investment to get the kits to where they are today. That is what is forgotten. Everyone wants to start at Vans level and compete. Vans has a still a small company that has an owner that understands how fragile his profession is. You are not going to come in and make a killing in aviation. Plans planes in essence is saying, I want to do it the hard way.

#### Pilgrim69

##### Active Member
Why the Zippy... Because I like the "Tailwindesque" style and the cruise performance. In some other thread I have read about Ed designing, but not completing a Zippy two seater. That would probably be my ideal plane. My requirements are something affordable but with decent cruise to make a couple 150 nm trips monthly by myself, but I'd like also to have the capability to take my daughter or a friend for local hops. I'm seeing the O-100 as a very promising affordable engine for a plane that only. As I mentioned earlier, Ed offered me the full scale Mong biplane rights, but had to pass as I had just adopted a baby and my savings was pretty much descimated. In a bit different place now financialy and maybe its possible depending on how much he wants for the IP and what it comes with. So before I reach out to him, can I get more info from you as to how you know its going the way of the dodo... Or your welcome to PM me if you prefer. Also if you want to try for them first by all means do so.

For others wanting more info on the Skylite or Lil Bitts my website is below... Still a bit lacking in content but that will come in time.

Take care,

Marc
Pilgrim 69,

Ok now my question is did the guy and Green Sky Adventures mention that he was going to retire and the designs would be orphaned? I just went to his website and see he also has the Micro Mong and maybe I could reach out to him about getting both designs. I am sure there are many caryovers of parts between all Ed's design so it may make sense I support them as well. As I mentioned earlier, Ed offered me the full scale Mong biplane rights, but had to pass as I had just adopted a baby and my savings was pretty much descimated. In a bit different place now financialy and maybe its possible depending on how much he wants for the IP and what it comes with. So before I reach out to him, can I get more info from you as to how you know its going the way of the dodo... Or your welcome to PM me if you prefer. Also if you want to try for them first by all means do so.

For others wanting more info on the Skylite or Lil Bitts my website is below... Still a bit lacking in content but that will come in time.

Take care,

Marc
Pilgrim 69,

Ok now my question is did the guy and Green Sky Adventures mention that he was going to retire and the designs would be orphaned? I just went to his website and see he also has the Micro Mong and maybe I could reach out to him about getting both designs. I am sure there are many caryovers of parts between all Ed's design so it may make sense I support them as well. As I mentioned earlier, Ed offered me the full scale Mong biplane rights, but had to pass as I had just adopted a baby and my savings was pretty much descimated. In a bit different place now financialy and maybe its possible depending on how much he wants for the IP and what it comes with. So before I reach out to him, can I get more info from you as to how you know its going the way of the dodo... Or your welcome to PM me if you prefer. Also if you want to try for them first by all means do so.

For others wanting more info on the Skylite or Lil Bitts my website is below... Still a bit lacking in content but that will come in time.

Take care,

Marc
HI Marc,
That's Tom Olenik reply. I think they are concentrating in the engines and parts business and probably will not carry the plans anymore. Seems a great opportunity for You to become the clearinghouse for all the most representative Ed Fisher's designs. Personally I think each of them fills his role in a very efficient and elegant way. The Lil Bitts is lovely and the fact that it's mildly aerobatic, the icing on the cake. As I stated before, the ideal plane for me will be something more cruise oriented and capable of taking a passenger. IMHO a two seat development of the Zippy or the Lil Bitts would be something really special, the first for his XC capability and the second because as far as I know, there is no very light 2 seater acro capable biplane except the Murphy Renegade.
Meanwhile, there's lots of low and slow 2 seaters, so that version of the Skylite will not be a break through. Just my 2c!
Regards,
Ezequiel

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#### TFF

##### Well-Known Member
There are plenty of low horsepower travel planes. Besides the small Tailwind, you have the buttercup. It’s actually a better size plane. Parasol planes can be enclosed. The Bearhawk LSA would be pretty good too. Find some Daphne plans or a Pegazair. You can also hit the low wing stuff.

Small Continental or Lycoming is the way to go if you are serious. Corvair is doable with the right attitude. VW is about putting up with VW. Any plane for a VW is going to be painfully small or very low performance with two. It always depends on mission; truthful mission. The more you sacrifice on hardware, the more you sacrifice on the mission.

#### Pilgrim69

##### Active Member
There are plenty of low horsepower travel planes. Besides the small Tailwind, you have the buttercup. It’s actually a better size plane. Parasol planes can be enclosed. The Bearhawk LSA would be pretty good too. Find some Daphne plans or a Pegazair. You can also hit the low wing stuff.

Small Continental or Lycoming is the way to go if you are serious. Corvair is doable with the right attitude. VW is about putting up with VW. Any plane for a VW is going to be painfully small or very low performance with two. It always depends on mission; truthful mission. The more you sacrifice on hardware, the more you sacrifice on the mission.
The Buttercup doesn't inspire me as the Tailwind does. I know there's been some combinations between the two as the Butterburger but I couldn't find much about. My engine of choice for a two seater on a budget will be an A-65, maybe converted to A-75 or 80. I had a Luscombe 8A and it flew well with 65 ponies. Was a floater and had a good cruise. Depended on thermals to climb with two no so fit adults on a warm day, but otherwise was sprightlier than the Cessna 150 I had later. I suppose a Tailwind (W8) could be made lighter than a Buttercup because it's smaller dimensions. Don't know if the plywood wing is heavier in spite of being smaller.I also tried to find more info about Daphne but got nothing of substance.

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