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Ahh, the impressive Slepcev Storch

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TFF

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It sits tall; I have wondered how hard it is to climb in. The white/purple one has a Rotax 914 and an electric adjustable prop.
 

ekimneirbo

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Very difficult to convince some folks that flat turns at low speed are dangerous. Cross-controlling is one of the best ways to get oneself into a spin.
That's true and is one way to look at it. Another way is that a plane designed to perform that maneuver is safer
for an inexperienced pilot because he has less chance of spinning than in a plane which doesn't generate lots
of lift at slow speeds. With this airplane it becomes a maneuver which is within the capabilities of the design
and then it becomes a matter of getting sufficient training and practice to be proficient.
Looking back at previous discussions we have had, you have mentioned that various "tendencies" of aircraft
that I feel cause unnecessary risks for pilots are acceptable and pilots who become proficient won't have a
problem. This is the same argument .....but we have both taken opposite positions. Funny how that happens :)
 

Rockiedog2

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I'm trying to figure out what the point of hamfisting that thing around the pattern is...looks like a nasty bit of flying there to me. Shoot, most intro flight students can do that good...
in my old school way of thinking the way to take full advantage of the slow speed capabilities of the(any) design is to keep the ball in the middle. seems like that would be the point of demoing a plane with the capabilities of the Storch.
Well; they say there's no *bad* airshow maneuver, no matter how botched it was.

The few students I had who overshot final and tried to drag the nose around (even at 1.3 Vso) only did it once. I think they call that the flat turn. But what do I know about the Storch? is it stall/spin proof? Somehow I doubt it...even tho it's a Storch. But dunno...
 
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ekimneirbo

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I guess my question would be, "What other airplanes are capable of making that maneuver at a somewhat similar airspeed
and an excellent pilot at the controls"?
Any videos of them?

If a wing doesn't have a tendency to drop at slow speeds but allows the airplane to mush ahead with only slight dropping of
the nose...then recover...even during a turn...thats impressive to me.
 

Dan Thomas

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If a wing doesn't have a tendency to drop at slow speeds but allows the airplane to mush ahead with only slight dropping of
the nose...then recover...even during a turn...thats impressive to me.
A wing with an aileron down will stall and drop sooner than the wing with its aileron up. It's as simple as that, and that guy was slow enough to be tickling the edge of a stall/spin. I don't care how capable that airplane might be; it will still kill a pilot who abuses it. It's fine to have a skilled pilot in an unforgiving airplane, but I cannot call a guy who does flat turns at low airspeed and low level "skilled." He more likely thinks he's being safe by avoiding the increased load factor of a bank.
 

bmcj

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The Stinson L-1 I flew (similar to the Storch) would turn flat like that. It actually took an exaggerated stick input to get much bank out of it.
 

Pops

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An old friend of mine, Ernie Carlson, ( Carlson Aircraft) was killed when he had engine failure on a test flight of his 3/4 size Storch. We started flying model airplanes together when we were 15 years old. I was at his hanger and looked at the Storch a short time before.

Carlson Criquet, Stall 16 mph, cruise 95 mph.

Dan
 

ekimneirbo

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A wing with an aileron down will stall and drop sooner than the wing with its aileron up. It's as simple as that, and that guy was slow enough to be tickling the edge of a stall/spin. I don't care how capable that airplane might be; it will still kill a pilot who abuses it. It's fine to have a skilled pilot in an unforgiving airplane, but I cannot call a guy who does flat turns at low airspeed and low level "skilled." He more likely thinks he's being safe by avoiding the increased load factor of a bank.
Why would a pilot flying exceedingly slow be in more danger of a spin in an airplane that is capable of turning in a flat level plane
than the same pilot in an airplane that has to bank the wings to make the maneuver? If the airplane is in a bank at slow speeds then there is already a difference
in lift and controls effectiveness. Although a bank is usually part of a turn, as speed declines it should be easier to enter a spin than with entry into a spin from a
wings level condition. Please explain why you feel this is more dangerous.

I have a copy of a factory video for the Slepcev Storch. It is a great demo video with lots of flat turns and take offs over tree obstructions.
The airplane dances about in a field and seems more like a ballet or a butterfly the way it flits around. It is truly an amazing airplane. It's a
shame is isn't available on Utube. Some of these planes with slots will do amazing things that non slots would never attempt. I think maybe
the flight envelope for these fantastic flying machines is a little shocking to the establishment as far as accepting flight that goes against
how they learned to fly. I have seen video of a Pegazair doing the same maneuver.

Also, with the slats keeping better airflow and thereby better controllability, if a wing did begin to drop, wouldn't the slot wing be easier to recover?
 
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Rockiedog2

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Why would a pilot flying exceedingly slow be in more danger of a spin in an airplane that is capable of turning in a flat level plane
than the same pilot in an airplane that has to bank the wings to make the maneuver? If the airplane is in a bank at slow speeds then there is already a difference
in lift and controls effectiveness. Although a bank is usually part of a turn, as speed declines it should be easier to enter a spin than with entry into a spin from a
wings level condition. Please explain why you feel this is more dangerous.
Hi ekimneirbo
there are 2 conditions required to spin...stalled(or near stalled) wing and yaw. in a flat turn we have one of the conditions as a given...the yaw. all we lack is the stall. if we allow/force it to stall it will spin. in a banked coordinated turn we don't have the yaw or the stall unless we allow the thing to stall in which case we still lack the yaw so it shouldn't rotate. so in a flat turn we intentionally give up one of the conditions. not good.
the storch "pilot" was not only yawing the hell out of it he was hamfisting the pitch as well, likely putting G on it near the stall AOA which may easily lead to an unanticipated accelerated stall. and spin...maybe even a snap roll
well, that's my simple minded way of looking at it. there are others here who can get much more technical about it but that's all I need to know to stay outa trouble.:)
 

Dan Thomas

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A flat turn requires cross-controlling. Just using rudder and leaving the ailerons neutral will try to bank the airplane, so the pilot has to apply opposite aileron to keep it level.

Deflecting ailerons (or flaps) changes the angle of incidence of the airfoil, and therefore the angle of attack, over the section of wing controlled by that surface. Opposite aileron in a turn increases the AoA on the inside wing, which will make it stall before the other wing,, and the airplane will roll into a spin. I watched the pilot of an advanced ultralight spin out of a turn at low level at Arlington about 20 years ago; he died on impact. It's a result of not understanding angle of attack, coordination, and a bunch of other stuff.

I used to be a flight instructor, and in Canada we are required to teach spins and spin recovery. I did this in several types of aircraft,, but the best were the Champ and Citabria. One of the techniques was to get into a low-speed skidding turn (another name for a flat turn) and the student was always horrified to see what happened. He never did that near the ground after that. It can take a thousand feet to fix it even if you're expecting it.
 

bmcj

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One of the techniques was to get into a low-speed skidding turn (another name for a flat turn) and the student was always horrified to see what happened. He never did that near the ground after that. It can take a thousand feet to fix it even if you're expecting it.
Oh yeah, nothing impresses a student more than experiencing a departure into a spin from a skidding or slipping turn. They remember it well, but you need to follow through on the training (as I am sure you did) so that they understand why it happens and how to control it, otherwise you just create a pilot that is afraid to (and incapable of) flying safely throughout the entire flight envelope.
 

Rockiedog2

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>>> I used to be a flight instructor, and in Canada we are required to teach spins and spin recovery. I did this in several types of aircraft,, but the best were the Champ and Citabria. One of the techniques was to get into a low-speed skidding turn (another name for a flat turn) and the student was always horrified to see what happened. He never did that near the ground after that. It can take a thousand feet to fix it even if you're expecting it. <<<

Right on. And the typical scenario for the setup is overshoot final and rather than increase the bank/rate of turn or go around they try to drag the nose around with the rudder. They're likely to increase the back pressure along with it. The classic stall/spin in the traffic pattern setup. Experienced pilots do it too. I've seen it while demoing a plane to a possible buyer. They don't want to admit they missed the turn and try to disguise the recovery...if they even realize they're doing it. I became an EX cfi pretty quick LOL

>>>not understanding angle of attack, coordination, and a bunch of other stuff.<<<

I got a book here, 78 pages, nothing in it but spins. There's a whole lot to know.if one gets interested or is into aerobatics like BJC. I used to study it but have since lost interest in the details. I just try to keep the ball in the middle and the speed up a little now...and don't spill the coffee.

Anatomy of a Spin
John Lowery
 
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