# aeromomentum suzuki based engine

Discussion in 'GEO / Suzuki' started by don january, Jun 26, 2016.

1. Jan 4, 2018

### aeromomentum

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I am sorry but at this time our agreement with our supplier does not allow us to say. Of course once we start delivering them it will not be hard to figure out who's block it is.

2. Jan 4, 2018

### cluttonfred

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Understood, thanks, that explains why that info has been hard to find. Presumably it's safe to say that the block is from a different company than your other engines?

3. Jan 4, 2018

### ToddK

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Hi Mark,
Do you have an approximate idea about what the installed weight of the AM10 with radiator, fluid, and re-drive will be?

4. Jan 11, 2018

### wanttobuild

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Hi Mark

James Wiebe aka “ChipperAero” has your AM10 listed as a target engine. Will you be producing it in a slant version? I will be starting a single seat version this summer, and need basic guidance from you in respect to the mount.
Thank you
Ben

AirCreation Clipper
XP15 Wing

When the Green Light pops the BS stops

5. Jan 12, 2018

### Vigilant1

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FWIW: The specs and price on these engines are very attractive. While Aeromomentum hasn't been around forever, the engines themselves seem stout. Frankly, I'm wondering why they aren't more popular.

Mark, thanks for chiming in here and providing the information on your engines. Regarding the FI: For the AM13s, have you replaced the stock FI system with one using the Megasquirt? And can you chime in a little about robustness of the FI/ignition/ECU for this aircraft application: Is there a "limp home" mode in case of sensor failures, is everything dependent on a single controller, etc.

6. Apr 26, 2018

### SamP

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Any installations in a Sonex yet?

7. May 14, 2018

### cluttonfred

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Did anyone get to talk to the Aeromomentum folks at Sun N Fun? Any word on that AM10 3-cylinder? Cheers, Matthew

8. Jul 27, 2018

### cluttonfred

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Here is a video of the Aeromomentum, D-Motor, and Viking stands as Oshkosh this year. The Aeromomentum bit starts at 0:27 and at 2:27 features the AM10 75hp 3-cylinder, the first time I personally have seen it with the redrive. It's well offset vertically so looks to me like a better fit for tractor installations than I had thought.

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9. Jul 27, 2018

### cluttonfred

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And here are two more AM10 pics from Oshkosh taken directly from the Aeromomentum Facebook page....

With the prop hub offset so much from the crank, and if the weight and power turn out as suggested, then I can see this a quieter, cheaper, and more fuel-efficient alternative to the Aerovee or Revmaster big VW conversions. Maybe even for a VP-2....

10. Jul 27, 2018

### Vigilant1

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I, too, am interested in these AM engines.
One question I've had: with the selected PSRU ratio (2.588:1), at 6000 engine RPM they are turning the prop at just 2300 RPM. I'm sure it has good torque and would make good thrust with long-ish prop. But if we are limited by other factors to a shorter prop (e.g 54"), can we get good performance from a prop turning at this speed, especially at higher airspeeds? I would think it would require a hefty AoA on the blades, more than two of them, blades of hefty cord, or some mix of these things.

11. Jul 27, 2018

### harrisonaero

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Has Viking dropped the Hondas now too?

12. Jul 27, 2018

### cluttonfred

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With the power available, prop RPM, and ground clearance of the VP-2, I would expect that a 3- or 4-bladed prop would be a good idea, much like this Subaru-powered Canadian example. A ground-adjustable prop would be a good idea with a new combination of airframe and powerplant in any case, and most of the ground-adjustable options are available with more than two blades.

13. Jul 28, 2018

### Vigilant1

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Thanks for the pictures, their regular web page doesn't show the AM10 with the PSRU yet. This PSRU is a different design from the one used on all their other aero engines (but same gear ratio, according to their web site), I wonder if it has been wrung out by the airboat guys as the other PSRU design has been?
Hopefully, after Oshkosh they will post a dimensioned drawing. It would be interesting to know how far below the top of the engine the prop hub is.
But, 3 cylinders . . . I dunno.

14. Aug 2, 2018

### wsimpso1

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I visited Mark Kettering repeatedly during AirVenture, and I came away much more impressed than I did last year.

First off, last year, I was interested in engines he did not have yet, so I confess to not being quite as thorough as I might otherwise have been. Mark has since pointed out two things about his products that I got wrong last year:

AM engine isolation (flywheel and isolator selection work together here) allows idle speeds that put prop speed down in Lycoming territory, near 600 rpm, so our taxi ops will not burn brakes nor expose the power train to resonance. Good deal;

While he does make use of standard sensors, etc, he is selecting sensors, actuators, etc to suit the application with harnesses built to the product, not carried over from the production engines.

AM uses Megasquirt for fuel injection, ignition, wastegate control, etc. Maybe someone can give us a comparison to SDS? I do expect Ross to weigh in...

I do not know anything about AeroMomentum, but they have been around a bit. Mark claims that they do not start with base engines, but instead build from parts. Perhaps someone can give us a critique on the reliability, power, and suitability of their products.

What else did I learn? New engine. 2.0l DOHC four. Base engine markings are wiped out... But I have photos.

The new engine program is just getting started. Mark says it will fit inside the same cowling and with same prop position as the common four cylinder Lycoming based engines, and they are aiming squarely at putting everything inside that cowling, with rads in the standard openings, etc. We did talk about how the tranny flange and sump are kind of far down from the prop flange, but he asserts they will fit inside any cowling for a Lycoming, so it should not make for a "chin" on a custom cowling. I suspect I would still put a sexier cowl on it and a belly scoop for radiator, oil cooler, and maybe an AC condenser. Mark was open to the belly scoop, but his primary customer is the RV guy who already has a cowling...

Mark says that they WILL make his magic weight number of 285 pounds. Contributing to the weight will be lighter manifolds and a far more appropriate sized turbocharger for our steady state work. As to power, the automotive versions make much more power, AM will be derating considerably at 260 hp. Yeah, 260 Horsepower. One of my visits was right on the heels of a customer who informed Mark that he did not care about fuel consumption. Well, I said I do care about fuel. Is he planning any lean-of-peak and where? Well, Mark is planning lean-of-peak from 150 hp and down, with BSFC of 0.39 lb/hp/hr there. That is right in the sweet spot for me. He does not know how much above 150 hp he will stay lean-of-peak, but I find that a good thing. And 260 for takeoff and initial climb could be exciting indeed.

I also asked about intercoolers, oil coolers, and dual alternators. His package price includes an appropriate intercooler and oil cooler. He expressed that we already had some redundancy in electricity with an alternator and battery. I pointed out that this engine size supported many IFR equipped and flown airplanes and with the increased reliance upon electronics, a second alternator could be a desirable option. He said he saw the logic in dual alternators, being as it was being talked about.

I did bring up the topic of his gearboxes, and he asserts all of his gearboxes have been high reliability devices. We talked about how important the flywheel and isolator choices were important as they set the 1st order resonance and how it must be significantly below the operating range to prevent impact in the gear train. He seemed knowledgeable on the topic.

So, what else do we know about AM engines? Anyone?

Billski

Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
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15. Aug 2, 2018

### rv6ejguy

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I am not clear on what 260hp engine we are talking about here? Displacement? Based on what production engine?

Megasquirt EFI is cheap and capable. Not sure how reliable though in the aircraft environment. Not many flight hours to judge that part. There is no real support for it outside forums where you can get the whole spectrum of answers to one question.

I've never met Mark but generally like what he has to say on his website and elsewhere. Pretty much free from the usual BS factor most alt engine companies use in large quantities to market their products.

I'd caution anyone, including Mark, from hp, weight or longevity projections unless at least one example is flying and has accumulated at least 500 flight hours or 500 hours of WOT dyno time scattered over the normal rev range. Without this real world experience, conjecture is just that.

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16. Aug 2, 2018

### Vigilant1

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Mark Kettering pops in here occasionally, so he may chime in. I have corresponded with him a little bit, and his answers appeared to me to be both honest and free of hype. I am more interested in the smaller engines (AM13), and I like a lot of things about them--the Suzuki reliability, the use of new parts, the good HP/weight and HP/ ratios, the PSRU that has been used a lot on airboats, Mark's willingness to answer questions, etc.
My biggest reservation/question is about the EFI/EI. Last I heard from Mark, he was using the "MicroSquirt" variety of the "MegaSquirt. He liked their use of the robust AMP-Seal connectors. I have some questions (not complaints or informed disagreements--they are truly questions) about MegaSquirt/MicroSquirt, and they all relate to the suitabilty for aircraft use.
1) Closed loop EFI: The MegaSquirt as used by Aeromomentum uses a closed-loop EFI system with O2 sensor. This sensor will need to be replaced frequently if used with 100LL, and that's the only fuel I can get at my home airfield. Sometimes it may be the only fuel available during fuel stops when flying cross country. Further, the closed-loop system offers very little to us in the aviation environment, so why have it? And when the O2 sensor fails, how does the Aeromomentum EFI system respond? Will any "limp-home" mode provide enough power for me to climb?
2) MegaSquirt/MicroSquirt hardware: Again, maybe the thing is EMP-hardened, bomb-proof, etc. But an aviation-quality setup (high-quality circuit board, shock/vibration isolation, durable metal chassis, mil-spec capacitors/components, high-temperature tolerance, etc) would be very important in this single-point-of-failure part. If the primary market for MicroSquirt is car tuners, maybe they have made hardware choices that are not the same as are needed in aviation use.
3) Software: What happens when the logic of the MicroSquirt gets into a do-loop? There are lot of sensors in an EFI/EI system, and when one or more fails, it can be via many modes (null response, erratic responses, constant high or low reading, etc). Assuring that the system keeps providing fuel and spark to give enough power to stay airborne despite many combinations of incorrect inputs requires a TON of testing, and good design to begin with. I just don't know if this is a priority given the target audience for Mega/Micro Squirt. Critical-to-flight software demands rigorous engineering and testing in which reliability (not cost, not efficiency, not peak performance) is the top priority.

I wonder if SDS and Aeromomentum might team up sometime to offer SDS as an option on Aeromomentum engines. Mark offered to provide his product without the EFI/EI components for a reduced price, but then the customer would receive an engine that hadn't been test run, and any problems during the fitting of an SDS system would be subject to some debate about who/what was wrong. Going that route would be a lot more attractive if the customer received an Aeromomentum engine with an SDS package already installed and test-run by Aeromomentum. Mark likes the MicroSquirt system he is using, so perhaps he wouldn't see an advantage of going this route, and maybe Ross wouldn't like to do it, either.

Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
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17. Aug 3, 2018

### wsimpso1

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Ross,

Edited my post to include photos. Maybe they will help with ID of the base engine. It has power and weight targets on the handwritten placards.

I had intended to catch the EAA Canada presentation on EFI/EI at AirVenture, but I was sick as a dog that day, so had to pass on much moving around.

Billski

18. Aug 3, 2018

### rv6ejguy

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The engine looks very late model with the integrated turbo/ exhaust manifold but I don't recognize the brand.

260hp from a 2L for aviation use and 1800 hour TBO. Yes no problem for certain engines like the Ecotec turbo to jam out this power reliably.

1800 hour TBO? All I have to say is you have to prove that one by actually doing it at least once and nobody should ever make TBO predictions before they have.

Mark is right, that factory turbo is not the thing to use for aviation.

Closed loop and 100LL don't fly together too well for most folks. We see wideband O2s fail in as little as 4 hours, while some last 250. Not sure why, but it's not a great idea to use these unless you find a way to make the sensors reliably live. Swift unleaded avgas is spreading out all over the US and for local flying you can use mogas like I do.

We're open to work with most any alt engine vendor but it wouldn't be at the Microsquirt price point of course.

Yes, the ECU/ software response to failed sensors is a very big deal. Mark needs to test all that.

Anyway, keen to see what Mark comes up with in the end. He seems like a smart guy who gets with it. Experimental aviation needs a viable, reliable, turn key alternative to \$30K Lycomings. Turbo, liquid cooled fours have good potential if done right.

I'm impressed by what Mark is offering now in the lower hp ranges, especially given the price point.

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19. Aug 3, 2018

### rv6ejguy

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This is Kia/ Hyundai. Very good stuff IMO. See one getting flogged for 300+ hours here WOT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNPB3RtHN2M

Packaging of inline fours in aircraft always looks awkward, having to raise the thrust line way up from the crank. This engine looks pretty tall. Anything can be done of course...

Here's my Sube for comparison:

Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
20. Aug 3, 2018