ADSB Out ???

Discussion in 'Instruments / Avionics / Electrical System' started by N804RV, Jun 10, 2013.

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  1. Oct 20, 2013 #21

    Vigilant1

    Vigilant1

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    Agreed. I should have said that my concern wasn't related to our hobby, but to global commerce/air transportation. I'm not sure it would take a WWIII scenario--"space law" isn't well established, and (regardless) there could be lots of reasons even "minor" belligerents might feel obligated and justified to degrade a system that is being used to put ordnance on their people/assets/soldiers, regardless of who "owns" that asset. It could get messy. EMP, directed energy, jamming of uplink synchronization/control signals, kinetic attacks, etc: some or all are within the capability of many countries/groups.

    It is good to see the growth of receiver chipsets that can work with GLONASS and Galileo.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2013
  2. Oct 21, 2013 #22

    N804RV

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    Once the ADS-B out mandate does take effect, you will have to have mode-C and ADSB out to penetrate the 30NM veil around Class B. There's a lot of class-E airspace beneath that class-B that I want access to. Also, without the TSO-166b equivalent, will I be able to go to Canada? The impression I got from reading literature, is "no".
     
  3. Oct 21, 2013 #23

    Kyle Boatright

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    Someone correct me, but I believe there is an exemption for non-electric aircraft so you can get inside the veil. I do not believe you will be able to enter the Class B.
     
  4. Oct 21, 2013 #24

    TFF

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    Under the vail you will be able to fly a non electrical system airplane, for now; as long as it never had one. What happens down the road is up for grabs. My airport is under class B. If the rules stay the same, class B can be entered by giving ATC a call on the ground to see if they will that day. Non electrical system plane pilots dont really want to go into these areas any way. At Oshkosh the friend I was with was looking at panel stuff and said "the panel dates your plane." If you need to start with a VFR panel, do it and buy the best later.
     
  5. Oct 21, 2013 #25

    bmcj

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    I know I'm just nit-picking here, but I always flinch when I see references like this to geostationary orbit. Technically, "geostationary" orbit can only be accomplished along the equator; Any other orbit of the same period would be "geosynchronous" orbit.

    I agree. Debris poses a minor obstacle to system integrity. The only real threats that might potentially disable the system are intentional targeting, electronic jamming, overload by EMP or massive solar coronal discharge, or someone simply turning the switch off (military countermeasures).

    Bruce :)
     
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  6. Oct 24, 2013 #26

    gtae07

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    A few random thoughts:

    To the OP in particular:

    Wait until the very last minute to buy your avionics. They're like computers in that they get cheaper every day, and go obsolete the day you bring them home. If you won't be ready to fly until 2018 (which coincidentally is about when I expect to fly my RV) there will be a whole bunch of new cheaper and more capable options in the market by then, particularly for dealing with the 2020 mandate.

    That said, I am very strongly in favor of some kind of EFIS, even for a day-VFR airplane, if you plan to do any kind of cross-country flying at all. My dad's RV-6 was a day-VFR minimum steam gauge airplane with a monochrome handheld GPS for its first 10 years; I flew it a lot when I lived at home and still try to when I go back to visit. It was a blast to fly around to local events or doing formation work with the other guys at the airport. However, the limitations of that setup started to become apparent on cross-country trips. One time, we got disoriented on a real hazy day up high, and wound up 20kt over redline before we realized it. Another time, my parents were on a trip to visit friends and ran into deteriorating weather. Mom (not a pilot) wound up doing the flying while Dad tried to direct her around storms and worked with a paper sectional and the radio to find a field that was still open to divert to. After that flight, she told him "I don't care what it costs, you're upgrading your panel if you want me to go anywhere with you again".

    So, early this year he upgraded to a Skyview with ADSB and the autopilot. He's not yet 2020 compliant (though since their airport is under Atlanta's Class B, he'll have to be eventually), but that system is leaps and bounds over his previous setup. I tried it out for the first time when we flew to Oshkosh this year. (As an aside, I've worked with EFIS systems on large aircraft, so it wasn't a big jump for me, but I was still amazed--when I first worked with an integrated EFIS system on a large aircraft 10 years ago, it was the most advanced system in the world, and now dad's little homebuilt airplane has 85% of that capability at 1% of the cost!) Going up, we didn't really make much use of the additional capability; we flew in a 3-ship and Lead did the talking and navigating. Coming back was another matter. The weather was fairly poor on the way back, but having the ADSB in datalink and the autopilot was huge. The datalink meant we could see the radar picture all the way back home, and could easily pull up the weather at airports along our flight path. We knew where the airports with VFR conditions were at a glance, rather than having to pull out a paper sectional and build a weather picture in our heads from scattered AWOS reception and bugging Center. The autopilot relieved us of the tedium of "hold altitude and heading" for hours on end, freeing both of us to keep better situational awareness. The additional engine instrumentation is nice, too--colored sections highlight parameters that are out of normal bounds, and having all four CHTs and EGTs displayed gives a better picture of engine health and operating performance than a laggy analog pointer for one cylinder.

    I know there are some purists out there who will bemoan the loss of some skills or something because a system like this isn't forcing you to navigate with a pencil line on a sectional and marking off visual points like railroads and water towers, continually trying to compute groundspeed and time enroute with an E6B, and trying to stay out of someone's controlled airspace. Frankly, I don't care. I have better things to do in the cockpit, like keeping track of where I am in the big picture, keeping myself aware of alternates and diversion airports, and flying the airplane. I gain absolutely nothing from manually computing ground speed, or drift angle, or time enroute, so why waste the time doing all that? Why waste time and mental processing bugging Center or Approach or FSS to try and read off a list of VFR airports and their weather, and a rough verbal description of a line of precip, when I can get that same exact information in a clear visual format in less time than it took me just to look up the frequency to make the call?



    For GNSS signals in general
    :
    There aren't too many countries capable of physically killing GNSS satellites, and many (all?) of them are going to be wary of doing so because it would jeopardize their own systems. It's much easier and cheaper to try and jam or overwhelm the signals in the local area from the ground. I'd be more worried about solar storms and other natural phenomena. (I also favor keeping VORs around as a relatively cheap backup, but what do I know?)
     
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  7. Oct 25, 2013 #27

    bifft

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    What I've done for my day-VFR RV is to put in the panel I want and can afford now, and leave a 6x6 inch blank spot in the panel for when a unified ADSB in/out solution shows up in my price range. Do have the encoding transponder. ADSB will eventually show up in the lower right.


    IMG_4653.jpg
     
  8. Aug 23, 2014 #28

    59Manche

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    I realize I'm posting to a really old thread, but this far down the line many are still thinking about waiting to see if the market will produce WAAS capable es add ons for mode c transponders that will comply with the "out" requirement.

    Many have already gone to Stratus 2 units on iPads with Foreflight for the "in" solution. I'm one of them :) I've got old radios that work fine, and don't like $500 annual database subscriptions, so I'm waiting too.
     
  9. Aug 24, 2014 #29

    gtae07

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    Supposedly there's an "all in one" unit out there for about $4k that makes you legal; that's still a hit to the wallet but getting more affordable. Freeflight Systems | NextGen Avionics - ADS-B Solutions - ADSB Now

    With luck, the cost for such a unit will decrease over time as similar ones enter the market. We'll see if that actually happens.

    I will say that having the In part is very nice. Getting weather radar and METARs visually in the air is a gamechanger on a VFR cross-country.
     
  10. Aug 24, 2014 #30

    Kyle Boatright

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    NavWorks appears to have a $4k all-in solution too in the ADS600-BG

    NavWorx Inc. - Affordable ADS-B Solutions | NextGen Now

    But I'm waiting until 2019. No need to install something today and give it 5 extra years to go on the fritz/wear out/become obsolete.
     
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  11. Aug 24, 2014 #31

    Vigilant1

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    Me, too. I have a transponder (Mode C, not Mode S) and it has been handy a few times (cutting through the edge of a Mode C veil, etc), but I could easily get by without it for my particular flying. If ADS-B Out gets cheap (i.e. less than $500) I'll probably jump aboard, otherwise I guess I'll drop off the scopes entirely in 2020. To the degree that those of us (like me) who are now squawking 1200 99% of the time don't change over, the "improved" ATC system will actually be tracking/showing a lower % of the total air traffic than they do today.
     
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  12. Aug 25, 2014 #32

    Kyle Boatright

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    For my airplane to retain its utility, I'll have to be 2020 compliant. I'm right on the edge of the Atlanta/Hartsfield airspace.
     
  13. Aug 25, 2014 #33

    N804RV

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    Just wondering: Is this just personal choice? Looks to be very doable with just a mode C txpdr and a comm radio. One of these days, I'd love to try the ATL VFR flyways just for fun.
     
  14. Aug 25, 2014 #34

    Himat

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    I'll add one more "threat". Failure of one single electronic chip from one manufacturerer all system happened to use.

    The degredation of satelite navigation systems due to solar corona discharge and other electomagnetic "weather" is not that uncommon.
     
  15. Aug 25, 2014 #35

    Kyle Boatright

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    Inside what is today's Mode C veil will require ADS-B out as of 2020. That means to go a 1/2 mile south of my home field, or to any of the GA fields within 60 miles SE of me, I'll need the equipment.
     
  16. Aug 25, 2014 #36

    N804RV

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    Oh. It sounded to me like you were saying you HAD to have ADS-B out right now (rather than 2020). That's why I was asking if this was a personal choice, or do you know of some regulation I'm not familiar with.
     
  17. Aug 26, 2014 #37

    Kyle Boatright

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    What we have here is <was> a failure to communicate. ;-)

    Agree, there is no need to install ADSB out until 2020.
     

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