ADSB opeational question.

Discussion in 'Rules and Regulations / Flight Safety / Better Pil' started by jedi, Dec 28, 2019.

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  1. Dec 28, 2019 #1

    jedi

    jedi

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    Without an extensive study of the regulations it appears that the Terrafuga should operate the ADSB and transponder any time the vehicle is opperated.

    §91.225 Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) Out equipment and use.
    ......
    (f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless—
    (1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense,......
    or
    (2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions.

    Knowledgeable HBAers; If you were to borrow my roadable aircraft, when would you like the ADSB to begin transmitting?
     
  2. Dec 28, 2019 #2

    BJC

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    jedi, if you have a Terrafugia, you have bigger problems than trying to decide when to transmit ADS-B.


    BJC
     
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  3. Dec 28, 2019 #3

    Topaz

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    Good humor aside, a Terrafugia is probably not considered an "aircraft" when operating on the ground in "car" mode. If it were, all aircraft-related regs would apply when it was driving around as a car: position lights, beacon, transponder, etc. If a "roadable aircraft" is a an "aircraft" when it's operating on the ground, you could take it so far as requiring the driver to be in contact with ATC when driving around inside the lateral limits of Class B airspace, for example.

    When it's driving on the ground, the local DMV sets the rules. Once the wings fold out and the wheels leave the ground, the FAA rules apply.
     
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  4. Dec 28, 2019 #4

    Hot Wings

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    "Aircraft means a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air" (14 1.1)

    So I'd presume that once the wings were folded out the intent to fly makes it an aircraft. Same way we get around having to talk to the FAA after a crash where flight was not intended, but just happened.
     
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  5. Dec 28, 2019 #5

    BBerson

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    Does that actually work?
     
  6. Dec 28, 2019 #6

    Wanttaja

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    My Skybeacon has a minimum-speed setting, where the ADS-B out doesn't transmit if the speed is too low. Just set yours to the local Interstate speed limit, as I'm sure you never break the traffic laws. :)

    Ron Wanttaja
     
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  7. Dec 30, 2019 #7

    jedi

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    I guess there is no need to put ADS-B in my ultralight then. Topaz, would the ADS-B drop out as a glider circled in a thermal as it would appear stationary to the system?
     
  8. Dec 31, 2019 #8

    TFF

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    It does not drop out in the company’s helicopters. Tail beacon might have some crazy options. 103 ultralight? you would have to register it as an airplane, N number and all. The ADSB code is assigned to an N number; need it or not. All planes registered have had it assigned since it was regulated in.
     
  9. Jan 1, 2020 #9

    jedi

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    Topaz, I like your answer but need to fine tune it a bit. I will operate out of KRNT, in Class D airspace so I need the transponder on and need to be in contact with ground control before operations in the airport (surface) movement area. I would anticipate contacting ATIS and clearance delivery while still on surface streets in the vicinity of the airport.

    Hot Wings, As you pointed out in your reference to the CFR (14 1.1) The roadable aircraft becomes an aircraft the moment the certificate of airworthiness is signed. A Vought F4U Corsair is an aircraft when the wings are folded IMHO.

    Sounds to me like the ADS-B should be wired to the master switch.

    BJC, Very insightful. I do have overwhelming bigger problems. When the big ones are to much to handle I default to the ones I can manage. Guess I should have traded the Terrafuga for a Pitts and a house on an airpark. I know it is hard to comprehend but the Terrafuga costs less than the airpark property and the Pitts, but then the Pitts is a lot more fun to fly also. The only thing better than that would be the Pitts and a Sportsman with the airpark on a lake and with a seaplane in the garage.

    They say if you want to make a man happy do not give him more but have him want less. OK, I do not want a Terrafuga but I do want a roadable ultralight with no electrical system (therefore, no transponder, no ADS B required).

    Wishing a happy and prosperous new year to all!
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2020
  10. Jan 1, 2020 #10

    TFF

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    Unless they changed it recently, Class D does not require a transponder if the aircraft qualifies for not having one. It does require a radio. How much hate the tower gives you is another question.
     
  11. Jan 1, 2020 #11

    jedi

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    It is not the hate, it is the degraded service you get when tower does not know where you are. Not bad at the home airport where tower personal get to know you but not so great at remote fields. Still looking for a good hand held setup that works with unshielded ignition wires, noisy two cycle engines and 60 mph wind noise in the mike.

    Linx headsets are best but better would be "better". Best would be "much better".
     
  12. Jan 2, 2020 #12

    BJC

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    A lake and a sea plane would be ... fantastic. BTW, a neighbor has a PA-18 on straight floats that he tows behind an early 1940’s Jeep to a wet-season, crescent shaped lake (Hammock Pond
    Dropped pin
    Near Hammock Pond, Florida 32195
    https://goo.gl/maps/nHKd9FQ7dKpP1Aud9 )
    immediately north of 97FL, and flies from there. There are lots of water landing areas around here.
    And a wish for a happy 2020 for you.

    A toast to all HBAers; “May the best day in your past be the worst day in your future.”


    BJC
     
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  13. Jan 2, 2020 #13

    bmcj

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    So if you are squawking mode S and ADS-B out in your Terrafugia on the ground, can you also file a drive plan or IFR ground plan? In fact, would the VFR minimums apply to your drive? :fear:
     
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  14. Jan 2, 2020 #14

    jedi

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    No, a VFR private pilot can taxi around the airport in zero zero Wx. In fact, no FAA certificate is required to taxi an aircraft on most airports. However, there are also airports that require an airport drivers certificate to operate in the movement area without an aircraft. KRNT mentioned above in post #9 is one of those. I am a graduate of the required class to drive on KRNT but was denied access (did not meet the minimum requirements) to enroll in the class to to drive on KTUS.
     
  15. Jan 2, 2020 #15

    BBerson

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    The new ADS-B Advisory Circular is out today. Maybe this will work for your ultralight in class D and class G:
    1. 3.3 Traffic Awareness Beacon System (TABS). Operators of aircraft exempt from carrying a transponder or ADS-B equipment may wish to consider installing a TABS device (refer to TSO-C199, Traffic Awareness Beacon System (TABS)). TABS devices do not meet the transponder or ADS-B requirements defined in §§ 91.215 and 91.225, respectively. However, they will allow TABS-equipped aircraft to be electronically “visible” to aircraft equipped with Traffic Alert and Collision Avoidance Systems (TCAS), Traffic Advisory Systems (TAS), and ADS-B In systems. TABS-equipped aircraft that are broadcasting an ADS-B In capability will also become TIS-B clients.

      The 59 page AC is here: https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_90-114B.pdf
     
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  16. Jan 2, 2020 #16

    jedi

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    BBerson, Thanks that helps a lot. I have downloaded the referenced AC and I have submitted it to the the Google AT (Acronym Translator). Results have not been received yet.

    Apparently the digital systems are overloaded due to excessive market activity and issues regarding whether 2020 is the beginning of a new decade or the dying gasps of the last 9 years. Flat landers have pointed out that there was no year 0 (Zero) year which is true as the "civilized" world was still using Roman Math.

    IMHO since the first year was 1 the first decade only had 9 years in it. Of course there is the remote possibility that the world was here before we started counting. If that was the case the first decade may have had millions or zillions of years in it. Kind of makes this ADS B stuff look irrelevant doesn't it.

    Thanks again. I look forward to reading the AC once it is translated.
     
  17. Jan 2, 2020 #17

    Topaz

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    How is this different from doing the same with a hand-held radio? And what's the hurry that demands you get your clearance while still driving outside the airport boundary?

    In short, this seems like an artificial question. If you want to make the airport boundary the point where your roadable aircraft makes the entirely artificial transition from automobile to aircraft, that's a choice. When you fold out the wings is another (equally artificial) choice for that transition point. I think operating as an aircraft, in terms of transponder and ATC, when operating as a car outside the aircraft boundary, is just going to confuse ATC regardless of the legal technicalities.

    And again, what's the big hurry? Listen to ATIS on the way to the airport, cross the airport boundary, "become an airplane", and request your clearance.

    I'm not sure where the actual issue is here, other than you want the convenience of having the tower give you a clearance before you're actually on the airport.

    What am I missing?
     
  18. Jan 3, 2020 #18

    jedi

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    Topaz, you ask "What am I missing?"

    1. KRNT Class D airspace is within the KSEA 30 nm mode C veil therefore a transponder with Mode C and ADS B is required unless the aircraft never had an electrical system or is an ultralight or glider. True a handheld will do for the communication requirements but the primary discussion here is operation of the ADS B. As noted in the OP (original post) FARs require operation of the ADS B whenever the vehicle is operating. Actually it does not even say that but I assume that to be the intent. See post #1 above. "operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times".

    2. The aircraft arrives at the airport warmed and after a preflight walkaround and run up. It has a 30 second wing extend (similar to the new Boeing design) and is ready for flight. I would call ground control upon passing through the airport fence and be ready for takeoff at the end of the runway. The tower must call approach to get an IFR release and this can take several minutes depending on what other operations are in the area. An IFR arrival can hold departures for several minutes and a Boeing test flight can close the airport to all traffic for 5 to ten minutes (once the Max is back in service). KSEA and KBFI traffic can also hold departures. Gate hold for the destination airport can cause even longer delays. Once the door is closed, etc. it is best to get in line.

    3. Becoming an aircraft is not an arbitrary event. It is covered by regulation. The point of this thread is to get input as to how certified pilots will operate within the existing regulations.

    4. A bird is a bird is a bird. A lizard does not change into a bird when it leaps into the air and a bird does not become a lizard when it crawls into a hole. An airplane is an airplane even when it is stored in a barn for 10 years. Pull it out, inspect it and it does not magically become an airplane when the wheels leave the runway even it it is to ground loop in the grass to the side of the runway or runs off the end because the pilot forgot to extend the wings and tail as in the Switchblade.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
  19. Jan 3, 2020 #19

    gtae07

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    In my experience, the FAA would agree that it would confuse ATC and isn't quite the intent of the rules, but nevertheless they'd hammer you for it anyway.

    Then again, they might update the rules and guidance material years down the road. See discussions and rulemaking about ADS-B Out usage in formation flight (where the rules were updated and clarified at the last minute, many years after the concern was raised)...
     
  20. Jan 3, 2020 #20

    12notes

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    The FAA's ADS-B webpage has a link to AC90-114a Change 1 - which was cancelled. I searched for AC90-114b, and, what do you know, it exists, but isn't referred to or shown anywhere else on the site.

    https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_90-114B.pdf

    It contains this: (bolding of text was me)

    4.3.1 Transmit Requirements. In accordance with § 91.225(f), each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times, unless authorized by the FAA or directed by air traffic control (ATC). This equipment operation requirement pertains to all phases of flight operation, including airport surface movement area operations. Pilots should select the transponder mode that enables the altitude reporting and ADS-B Out transmissions any time their aircraft is positioned on any portion of an airport movement area.

    Driving to the airport isn't a phase of flight operation. Note that a literal interpretation of "transmit mode at all times" includes when the aircraft is tied down, parked in a hangar, or undergoing an annual, so the clarification to "all phases of flight operation" is a welcome change.
     
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