ADS-B and Part 103

Discussion in 'Instruments / Avionics / Electrical System' started by proppastie, Nov 30, 2018.

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes Forum by donating:

  1. Nov 30, 2018 #1

    proppastie

    proppastie

    proppastie

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2012
    Messages:
    3,504
    Likes Received:
    1,006
    Location:
    NJ
    Would one be able to add ADS-B and Transponder to a Part 103 legal aircraft. I am thinking that in my area of high traffic it could provide me with traffic awareness, and collision avoidance. I am not sure about how with no N number how that would work.
     
  2. Nov 30, 2018 #2

    BJC

    BJC

    BJC

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    8,877
    Likes Received:
    5,729
    Location:
    97FL, Florida, USA
    You need an N number for ADS-B out.

    edit. But you can install ADS-B in and monitor traffic.


    BJC
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
    proppastie likes this.
  3. Nov 30, 2018 #3

    lr27

    lr27

    lr27

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2007
    Messages:
    3,216
    Likes Received:
    463
    Apparently, there is an emitter category for part 103 ultralights. That kinda implies there's some legitimate way to do it. I think it's around page 15 or 16 here:
    https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-165B.pdf
    I think "emitter category" is just a setting on the ADSB gadget. There are some really small ADSB units for UAV's, don't know if they can be used for this, assuming a part 103 ultralight can use adsb at all.
     
    proppastie likes this.
  4. Nov 30, 2018 #4

    BBerson

    BBerson

    BBerson

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    11,409
    Likes Received:
    2,092
    Location:
    Port Townsend WA
    Most of the VFR GA traffic and all the ultralight traffic will not have ADS-B out So an ultralight pilot staring at his ADS-B is only seeing a few, while not looking for the others visually.
     
  5. Nov 30, 2018 #5

    BJC

    BJC

    BJC

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    8,877
    Likes Received:
    5,729
    Location:
    97FL, Florida, USA
    My understanding - which could be wrong - is that the category defines aircraft characteristics that ATC uses for proper separation and control. There are multiple sections of the rule that require that the aircraft’s N number be used in the ADS-B out equipped aircraft. (There are exceptions, but they apply to aircraft with registration numbers.)


    BJC
     
  6. Nov 30, 2018 #6

    N8053H

    N8053H

    N8053H

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Messages:
    2,511
    Likes Received:
    436
    Location:
    Right here in front of my computer
    While they do not make these any longer I still love mine. I am speaking of the Monroy ATD300 TAS " Traffic Alert System". You do not have to stair at it for your head set plugs into it. It announces using your headset then gives a display on the panel. Every now and then they come up for sale. They are small and can be powered for over 10 hours using a small battery. Voltage range of 9-24 volts. If you use anything but 12 volts it will give voltage warnings. It monitors voltage and when voltage is not correct or 12-14 volts it warns of this. Another feature of this unit I like.

    Because of the traffic this small airstrip see's from GA airplanes and helicopters I wanted to keep not only my eye's peeled for this traffic but my ears. So I got me a hand held and thought all was good. I then found all these aircrafts be it rotor wing or fixed never said a word over the radio using the channel for this field. After seeing a dozen helicopters show up and not one word over the radio I knew this radio was not the answer. Then one day I am in the pattern and from my 6 I have a crop duster pass under me at about 100' below me. Scared the bageezers our of me. I wanted to throw that hand held out the window. Something had to change. I started looking for a traffic alert system of some sort. I stumbled onto the Monroy units. After installing one, I will not fly without it today. Sure I keep my head on a swivel, but I can not look behind me.

    One day as my wheels break gravity on take off, this Monroy unit woke up or came to life. It announces, Traffic, I look to see it is telling me this traffic is one NM mile away and +700'. I swing my head around to find a GA airplane crossing mid field. Yep I like this unit.

    I have owned this unit more than a few years now and been flying out of the same field using this unit for all this time. A couple years ago twice this unit reported a transponder -700 or 700 feet bellow me. I was on the ground. It only happened this one summer and has never happened again.
     
    proppastie and BJC like this.
  7. Nov 30, 2018 #7

    proppastie

    proppastie

    proppastie

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2012
    Messages:
    3,504
    Likes Received:
    1,006
    Location:
    NJ
    everybody here is getting ADS-B out it will be very hard to fly in the NY-Washington corridor without it.
     
  8. Nov 30, 2018 #8

    proppastie

    proppastie

    proppastie

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2012
    Messages:
    3,504
    Likes Received:
    1,006
    Location:
    NJ
    Maybe just a transponder so other traffic can see me?, and ADS-B in or a Monroy ?
     
  9. Nov 30, 2018 #9

    BBerson

    BBerson

    BBerson

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    11,409
    Likes Received:
    2,092
    Location:
    Port Townsend WA
    It won't be everybody except in Class B and C. You need permission to fly an ultralight in Class B, Class C and Class E around an airport.
     
  10. Nov 30, 2018 #10

    TFF

    TFF

    TFF

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    11,121
    Likes Received:
    3,012
    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    Mode c will not do anything without the ADSB box. Mode S will show your location to an ADSB aircraft and have the feds waiting for you when you land once all the new system jitters of Jan 1 2020 are over. You either do to don't have the correct equipment; no middle ground. As for drone ADSB, if the standard is non ID signal, you will not be able to fly over 400 ft AGL with drone stuff. The signal above 400 will have the same crew waiting where you land. Drones are not going to be able to fly higher than that without wavers.
     
  11. Nov 30, 2018 #11

    BJC

    BJC

    BJC

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    8,877
    Likes Received:
    5,729
    Location:
    97FL, Florida, USA
    The max altitude for drones should be 40 yards, not 400 feet.


    BJC
     
  12. Dec 1, 2018 #12

    TFF

    TFF

    TFF

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    11,121
    Likes Received:
    3,012
    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    Unluckily my RC planes are considered drones now, and I am as passionate with them as the real thing. So right now I am not a fan of any airspace regulation that is recent.
     
    bmcj and lr27 like this.
  13. Dec 1, 2018 #13

    proppastie

    proppastie

    proppastie

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2012
    Messages:
    3,504
    Likes Received:
    1,006
    Location:
    NJ
    Right now in my Mooney with Mode C my friends with ADS-B in have no trouble seeing me and telling me exactly how far I am from them. But you bring up an interesting point, if I am not required to have ADS-B out because I am Part 103 with no electrical system, I am not allowed to have ADS-B out because I do not have a N number, I also am not allowed to have only Mode C because I do not have ADS-B out after 2020?
     
  14. Dec 1, 2018 #14

    proppastie

    proppastie

    proppastie

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2012
    Messages:
    3,504
    Likes Received:
    1,006
    Location:
    NJ
    Are you sure about Class E? That's every thing above class G (700 or 1200 AGL) and below Class A (18K) outside any control zone.
     
  15. Dec 1, 2018 #15

    BBerson

    BBerson

    BBerson

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    11,409
    Likes Received:
    2,092
    Location:
    Port Townsend WA
    Class E starts at the surface at some medium size airports that don't have towers. On the sectional chart look for the magenta dotted line with a 5 Mile airport radius and sometimes with big lateral extensions.

    §103.17 Operations in certain airspace.
    No person may operate an ultralight vehicle within Class A, Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport unless that person has prior authorization from the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that airspace.

    [Amdt. 103-17, 56 FR 65662, Dec. 17, 1991]
     
  16. Dec 1, 2018 #16

    BBerson

    BBerson

    BBerson

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    11,409
    Likes Received:
    2,092
    Location:
    Port Townsend WA
    The words control zone is outdated, I think.
    Now its's all called "controlled airspace".
    Without contacting ATC, you can fly your Mooney into the class E controlled airspace designated for an airport if the visibility is good enough but not your FAR 103 ultralight (without prior authorization from ATC) .
     
  17. Dec 1, 2018 #17

    gtae07

    gtae07

    gtae07

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,729
    Likes Received:
    1,030
    Location:
    Georgia
    That's ADS-R (rebroadcast)... the same ground transmitters that give you weather etc. also transmit traffic from the FAA's system, so Mode C only targets will show up on ADS-B if you have a receiver. However, only traffic within a given radius of 2020-compliant aircraft will be broadcast.


    I don't think the bold part is correct. UAvionix, for example, makes ADS-B In/Out units for UAS now--see https://uavionix.com/products/ping2020/ for a couple of units. They're on the same order of cost as for a manned aircraft, but as far as I can tell from the documentation and the regs, there's nothing preventing you from taking one of these units and mounting it on your ultralight, and just setting the appropriate equipment type. Just leave the address/N-number field blank.
     
    proppastie likes this.
  18. Dec 1, 2018 #18

    BBerson

    BBerson

    BBerson

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    11,409
    Likes Received:
    2,092
    Location:
    Port Townsend WA
    Does the FAA computer get an alert if an ultralight with ADS-B is cruising below 500 feet?
     
  19. Dec 1, 2018 #19

    TFF

    TFF

    TFF

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    11,121
    Likes Received:
    3,012
    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    There are ADSB piggyback boxes for mode C transponders. There is an altitude restriction using the UAT band. Essentially price points and abilities for most. As for being seen below 500 is probably. ADSB is stat, relay, and ground. You don't know how many relays or who picked it up. There will be some lull spots, but in those areas you will show intermittent. Intermittent is going to be a problem like aerobatics. Because of being computer based, it will type out a letter that you are having signal problems, fix them. You either are going to be a wavered flyer, aerobatic flight is expected to have signal loss, or they will send a fine. I say by 2022 we will know how the final life with this will be like. 2020 is a learning year.
     
  20. Dec 1, 2018 #20

    BBerson

    BBerson

    BBerson

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    11,409
    Likes Received:
    2,092
    Location:
    Port Townsend WA
    I can't believe anyone would ask the FAA how to implement ADS-B in an ultralight at all.
    Don't mess with 103.
     

Share This Page

arrow_white