AC for uncontrolled airport operations

Discussion in 'Rules and Regulations / Flight Safety / Better Pil' started by BJC, Jun 3, 2018.

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  1. Jun 3, 2018 #1

    BJC

    BJC

    BJC

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    Recent AC wrt uncontrolled airport operations. Having seen a couple of near mid-air collisions between an IFR arrival (check flight) and VFR operations, I appreciate the statement that VFR has priority. Also appreciate the elimination of the 800 feet AGL pattern. Disappointed that they still publish alternative pattern entry procedures.

    https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_90-66B.pdf


    BJC
     
  2. Jun 4, 2018 #2

    12notes

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    It contains a severely irritating recommendation with no explanation: "Self-announce transmissions may include aircraft type to aid in identification and detection, but should not use paint schemes or color descriptions to replace the use of the aircraft call sign." At what point do they suggest I get close enough to the other planes so I can read the tail number? How is the color less useful?
     
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  3. Jun 4, 2018 #3

    BBerson

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    "aid in identification and detection" is useful for enforcement.

    At the Arlington Fly-in controllers don't use N-numbers, they use "high wing" and "low wing".
    Color isn't the best description from a distance since paint schemes are not very visible.
     
  4. Jun 4, 2018 #4

    TFF

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    Except for perfect light, colors wash out to black at any great distance.
     
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  5. Jun 4, 2018 #5

    mcrae0104

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    The color is less useful than a tail number because "blue and white Cessna" doesn't really narrow it down a whole lot at most airports.

    I'm glad the AC made this recommendation--not that anyone follows the AC it replaces (esp. wrt "all traffic in the pattern, please advise").
     
  6. Jun 4, 2018 #6

    Lucrum

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    Is this paragraph where you're getting this statement from? vfr.jpg
     
  7. Jun 4, 2018 #7

    BJC

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    That is part of it. There is more here:

    BJC
     
  8. Jun 4, 2018 #8

    Lucrum

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    The reason I asked is because I don't see where it specifically says VFR has priority. Only that IFR does not have priority. That would not mean that VFR does.
     
  9. Jun 4, 2018 #9

    12notes

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    Sure, at 10 miles you can't see colors. But in the pattern with other planes, it's fairly easy to see colors unless they are directly sunward from your position. And I'm never close enough to see a tail number.

    Information that has some chance of being useful is better than information that you can't use at all. It's a lot easier to see the difference between a blue and a red Cessna in the pattern than it is to see the difference between tail numbers. If two Cessnas are the same color, yes, it doesn't narrow it down. However, it all the situations where they aren't identical colors, it does narrow it down. Tail numbers never narrow it down.
     
  10. Jun 4, 2018 #10

    BJC

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    I agree; poor wording by me.


    BJC
     
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  11. Jun 4, 2018 #11

    Turd Ferguson

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    I agree, I think the message is standard traffic pattern right of way rules apply, neither IFR or VFR has specific priority over the other.
     
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  12. Jun 5, 2018 #12

    Turd Ferguson

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    I can tell you how the color business originated. The writer in an aviation rag decided he had a better way and wrote about how pilots should be using color of their aircraft for self-announce procedures. (He had no explanation why it was better). So as is often the case some readers accept that as a holy nugget and start doing it without questioning the process. Now you have some people doing method "A" and some doing method "B" when it should be standard.

    I have no problems with changing methodology but it has to be standard across the board. Can't have some people doing it one way while others are doing it another way. That's why they don't want people saying "Any traffic please advise" (which BTW originated in an aviation rag) it's not standard procedure and it fouls up the works.
     
  13. Jun 5, 2018 #13

    BBerson

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    How can IFR traffic exist at a VFR uncontrolled airport?
    If Visual Flight Conditions exist the IFR pilot should enter as VFR. (Visual Flight Rules, looking for non-radio traffic)
     
  14. Jun 5, 2018 #14

    BJC

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    I’ve seen a couple of near mid-air collisions in VFR conditions when someone insisted on flying an IFR approach right into existing VFR traffic. One’s excuse was that he was on a check ride, and needed to complete the approach.


    BJC
     
  15. Jun 5, 2018 #15

    mcrae0104

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    The point is not to visually differentiate two particular aircraft in the pattern that are making calls (whether by seeing the color of the stripe on the side or by reading the N-number). The point is to distinguish them on the radio. This is why the tail number is the appropriate call sign.
     
  16. Jun 5, 2018 #16

    BBerson

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    Then he should have failed the check ride. The safety pilot (check pilot) should be looking for traffic and if traffic is turning base they should go around
     
  17. Jun 5, 2018 #17

    BJC

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    He was flying the NDB approach to runway 3. A dozen airplanes were operating on runway 21. He flew right down the runway through departing flights. Two airplanes had to avoid him. I spoke to the check pilot over the radio, but he did not reply. I’ve seen that scenairo several times.


    BJC
     
  18. Jun 5, 2018 #18

    proppastie

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    And the shame of it is .....Perhaps it is legal... because this is only an AC ....advisory, not a rule. And yet I will fly straight in if there is no traffic and I am coming from that direction, or enter on a base....again if there is no traffic. .....
     
  19. Jun 5, 2018 #19

    BBerson

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    Yeah, I don't like FAR 91.113 that gives right of way to aircraft on final. Once I made a huge loop for a standard 45° pattern entry and called pattern entry. Three other pilots call they are on a straight in approach to final. So I get to base and the first pilot asks: "what are your intentions". I said I will go around. But why should these non-standard straight in guys get priority? Who has right of way?
     
  20. Jun 5, 2018 #20

    Pops

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    Even if I KNOW there is no traffic, I fly the pattern.

    You can be wrong the first time and maybe the last time.
     
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