A serious warning for builders!

Discussion in 'Hangar Flying' started by parkert51, Nov 15, 2011.

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  1. Nov 15, 2011 #21

    Jan Carlsson

    Jan Carlsson

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    The old genuin Swedish car maker Volvo is owned be Geely, and other chinese companys is trying to buy SAAB from Spyker car, Dutch , (is it a long story) SAAB have not produced a single car since end of June, and before that only had the production line going for 3 weeks, employees from production is home with full sallery.

    Jan
     
  2. Nov 15, 2011 #22

    Hot Wings

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    You may have to pay extra for it, but I think it is well worth the effort to get material certifications with all metals being used in an aircraft.

    This may have been true before we became so globalized. But now, as you pointed out, the certifications can be forged and unless there is some legal pressure that can be applied a piece of paper means little, other than to fulfill some documentation requirement.

    Being in the field that you are you may remember the problem years ago with poor quality grade 8 bolts here in the US. Those imported bolts had documentation but gave a bunch of FBI agents some job security. It also caused considerable expense and supply scarcity because lots of independent fastener outlets had no way of knowing which bolts were good and which weren't. The good got tossed out with the bad.

    It's too bad that we can no longer trust the documentation we receive. A contentious company will test every batch, regardless of any paperwork that may accompany the material, as Thunder/Parkert51 has done, unless they have personally inspected and monitor the entire supply chain.
     
  3. Nov 15, 2011 #23

    Tony

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    This is shocking to read to say the least.
    I order part "A" from suppler "B". When I get these parts I know just enough as an owner who never builds to just install these parts. If you tell me I must test these parts to make sure they are up to standards I will, 1- never do this and just install the part. 2- stop flying all together for no quality support from the manufactures and now I am scared to death that these parts might fail in flight.
    China with their cheap crap is not only ruinning our country but the world. They are killing us when we use it. Is this not a forum of terriorism.
    Tony
    P.S I fly a Homebuilt Experimental Fisher Avenger.
     
  4. Nov 15, 2011 #24

    Dan Thomas

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    I guess we gotta go back to wood. Pretty hard to counterfeit spruce trees. But then we'd wonder about the glues...

    Dan
     
  5. Nov 15, 2011 #25

    roverjohn

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    Tom,
    Can you at least tell, or show pics, of how the bad tube was marked? Also, was the bad tube all one size?
    Thanks,
    RJ
     
  6. Nov 15, 2011 #26

    Hot Wings

    Hot Wings

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    If you tell me I must test these parts to make sure they are up to standards I will,

    I'd not worry too much about parts and assemblies from reliable sources. They should have already done the testing of the raw materials that went into the finished product.

    This is not a new problem. I tossed out stacks of white box VW piston and cylinder assemblies that came from Brazil many years ago. My customers never saw them, but they did pay for them in an indirect way.


    We just have to remain vigilant.
     
  7. Nov 15, 2011 #27

    rtfm

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    Hi Tom,
    Hang in there mate. I think you did the right thing. Having read your initial post, I find it hard to believe the level of vindictiveness levelled at you because of it.

    F@#k them mate. Onward and upward.

    Regards,
    Duncan
     
  8. Nov 16, 2011 #28

    Tony

    Tony

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    I call it " Don't Kill The Messenger". Tom I did this very same thing. I saw a popular hobby hangout was going to close or be shut down. I tried to tell everyone they where loosing there hangout. I saw it comming, be there done that, type of thing.
    I caught all sorts of hell from all the locals. Then guess what, it shut down. To this day my name is mud in this hobby circle around these parts. All I did was tried to tell everyone they where loosing there hobby hangout. I was treated as I caused the complete problem, when in fact I never came on board untill one month before they closed.
    I guess its = no good deed goes unpunished. I for one do not know if I will ever need this info. But I can tell you the next time I do order some metal tube or whatever, because of this thread I will ask some questions I never knew to ask before. So I say thank you for posting this Thread.
    I will always remember...Country of origin and is it certified?
    I hope I have that right.
    Thanks again for posting this info.
    Tony


    Every time I do some brain dead move on some part, and I do them alot, I tell the wife....And I fly a plane.....
     
  9. Nov 16, 2011 #29

    Jman

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    Tom,

    I agree with our Moderators and and most folks in this thread. You did the right thing bringing it up and not mentioning the supplier by name. I'm glad to hear you test your materials. Quality control in this industry is more than just a liability issue. It's a moral obligation.

    Just a reminder to members who may have missed the HBA Code of Conduct: As Jarno mentioned - posting the contents of Private Messages, allegations of fraud, and personal attacks are not acceptable here on HBA. Check out my signature block for more info.
     
  10. Nov 16, 2011 #30

    Jman

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    Tom,<br><br>I agree with our Moderators and and most folks in this thread. &nbsp;You did the right thing bringing it up and not mentioning the supplier by name. &nbsp;I'm glad to hear you test your&nbsp;materials. &nbsp;Quality control in this industry is more than just a liability issue. &nbsp;It's a moral obligation. &nbsp; &nbsp;<br><br>Just a reminder to members who may have missed the HBA Code of Conduct: &nbsp;As Jarno mentioned - posting the contents of Private Messages, allegations of fraud, and personal attacks are not acceptable here on HBA. &nbsp;Check out my signature block for more info.&nbsp;
     
  11. Nov 16, 2011 #31

    Titanium Cranium

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    I am very glad this thread was posted. As a new and naive consumer in the aircraft industry, I often rely on those of you who are far more educated than myself, to give me the guidance and information I need to avoid making a massive mistake. I'm expecting to purchase quite a bit of 4130 soon to begin construction on my plane, so I greatly appreciate the warning and attention called to the issues with some of the metal.
     
  12. Nov 16, 2011 #32

    parkert51

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    Hello Guys, yes this was just for homebuilders. I have purchased with all the certs and found minor issues there. That's why we test everything that comes in. Now I am a realist and know that someone will eventually get hurt either flying our engines or one of our aircraft. I couldn't live with myself if in that event I was not confident that we did everything we could to insure safety. I want no blood on my hands and we will continue our testing process for as long as we are in business.


    On the flip side, should anyone have material they wish to be tested. Hit me off list, Thunder Aviation is hereby formally offering to test your materials free of charge. But there is paperwork and issues with this thus the off list contact.


    Tom Parker
     
  13. Nov 16, 2011 #33

    pwood66889

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    Kudos to Autoreply for stepping in. Coming in "late in the movie," I did not get all the he-saids and she-saids. Suffice it to say, I sincerely appreciate the moving of the dialogue to a higher plane.

    On a related note. I once worked with GE. One supplier had figured out their sampling method, and started "gaming the system." That supplier knew just how many known bad resistors (could have been diodes) to slip in before the statistical methods used by GE would be tripped. So I concur with Tom's warning = they are out there, folks.

    Percy in SE Bama, USA
     
  14. Nov 16, 2011 #34

    Himat

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    Be aware that this is not just the aircraft industry.
    It is all kind of industry.
    It could be part's for your car, truck, electrical appliances, sport equipment, whatever.
    Some beancounter will always see the possibility to substitute something cheaper.
     
  15. Nov 16, 2011 #35

    parkert51

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    Its deeper than the bean-counter, build a good product for a fair price and still you will get dozens and dozens of folks saying it should be half the price. Its this culture of wanting everything cheap. But cheap lacks quality and when your in the middle of that forced landing maybe ya might think hmmm, cheap may have been the wrong way to go.
     
  16. Nov 16, 2011 #36

    teknosmurf

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    Amen.
     
  17. Nov 16, 2011 #37

    Tony

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    I try and teach that cheap and inexpensive are to different things. Cheap is just that. Made of non-up to standard parts, by non-trained employee's with no quality control.
    Inexpensive, made of the highest quality with well trained employee's with lots of quality control, at a dicounted price. Will the cheap price and the inexpensive price be the same. No way. But it's as the old saying goes " You get what you pay for".
    We all as Consumers need to take this cheap crap china is sending us and we are spending our good money on and send every piece of it back. Instead of throwing it in our landfills every time it breaks, lets send it all back to china. Then someone needs to sue the hell out of China for selling us crap. I know if I started a company and sold crap I would be sued to death not to mention out of bissness. But we just keep on buying more and more like a junky on crack. When are we going to stop.
    I see on TV China has made some new Airplanes. I thought, if they make them out of the same stuff the sell here in America those birds are going to kill every pilot flying them. But then you see them doing there job and not falling apart. This tells me we get China's Crap and they build quality for what they need. When are we going to stop letting China sell us Crap. No we just keep buying and buying the same crap. If it breaks so what I only paid such and such, I will buy another one. Don't anybody see a problem with this?
    Lets Boycot China's goods. Try that, you will go without alot of stuff for china is the only one making it. Don't anyone see a problem with this. I still today remember Bill Clinton getting on TV saying how china was going to make our goods. What he did not tell us was, they "China" would ruin America with its junk. Lets ruin china and stop buying there junk.
    I am off my soap box as my wife says.
    Tony
    P.S. But China owns all our banks....Did you know that....How long before our flag reads...Made in China....
     
  18. Nov 16, 2011 #38

    parkert51

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    :ban:Dito:ban:
     
  19. Nov 16, 2011 #39

    teknosmurf

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    The funny thing about all of this is that China usually does a pretty good job of making things to specifications. A lot of the stuff we use is actually designed by some company here in the states, and simply made in china...to the specs designed. Unfortunately it appears those same companies that go to china are the same ones that are willing to sacrifice the quality. The chinese are very good at telling companies things like: "If you make this one small change...your price will be XXX dollars lower". The companies see that and make the change, and in a lot of cases may not realize the actual impact. Sometimes it is a very tough call.

    There are actually a lot of products that come from China that are just fine...if the company ordering them requires that quality in their specs, and make sure that what they are receiving is what they ordered.

    All of that said, and I should point out that there are pleanty of other reasons why we should order home-grown stuff...quality should probably not be the driving factor. Afterall, it was our fault for not tightening the specs and making sure those specs are adhered to.

    So...my (admittedly rhetorical) question on the faulty tubing was...whose name was on the design? Who did the importing? Who sold it to the company that ultimately sold it to the customer? Was there a batch mixup or did they intentionaly allow that stuff to be sold as aircraft quality? Did the customer-facing company try to go cheaper by ordering from a different supplier? Did that supplier realize it was going to be used for aircraft projects? etc.
     
  20. Nov 16, 2011 #40

    cklskypilot

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    Did you do the right thing. YES should you tell us how the supplier is. NO unless the supplier was selling this tubing as USA made and cert. and if that was true then that supplier needs to be shut down. you should let people know what comp. made the tubing as most tubing is mark and this would let others check there stock. I will state that some of you people have it backwards a supply house works for me I dont work for them or care if they get a bloody nose. my life is on the line and so are the people that ride in a plane that I fix. and they come first... ONE MORE THING did the supplier send out a recall to the other venders about this tubing? if not people at this point need to know the supplier
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2011

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