A new battery chemistry/technology that doesn't use Lithium or other Unobtanium

Homebuilt Aircraft & Kit Plane Forum

Help Support Homebuilt Aircraft & Kit Plane Forum:

dog

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2019
Messages
807
also interesting is that the aluminum/sulfer
battery,uses a low melting point salt as.an electrolite,it must be heated to 90°c before it is useable,then makes just enough heat to stay working,and turns into an inert brick when you
walk away,not ideal for aviation,but safe and
reliable sounding for other uses,freeing up
rarer materials for more demanding applications
 

addaon

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Messages
2,314
Location
Kanab, UT
Yep, this trick has been used in molten salt primary (non-rechargeable) batteries for decades. You build the battery with solid electrolyte and put it in your aircraft/missile (used in the Sidewinder, Patriot, etc). Light up a heat pellet just before launch, liquify the electrolyte, and you've got battery power for long enough to reach a target. Storage durations are effectively unlimited, unlike traditional primary cells which only last a decade or so.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dog

Devin

Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2022
Messages
20
Location
Springfield, MO
If we are ever going to reach this electrified utopia that we are being driven towards, battery technology is going to have to get magnitudes better. Lithium mining is ecologically devastating and unsustainable.
 

dog

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2019
Messages
807
Yep, this trick has been used in molten salt primary (non-rechargeable) batteries for decades. You build the battery with solid electrolyte and put it in your aircraft/missile (used in the Sidewinder, Patriot, etc). Light up a heat pellet just before launch, liquify the electrolyte, and you've got battery power for long enough to reach a target. Storage durations are effectively unlimited, unlike traditional primary cells which only last a decade or so.
the aluminum/sulfur are getting 500+cycles and
might be a real game changer for big UPS systems at hospitals,cell towers,off grid,etc
where time between cycles can be years in some cases,and power density is very good as well
something very relaxing about a system that will
just follow a sit stay command
 

Pops

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
11,498
Location
USA.
I need to buy new batteries for my solar system. Old batteries are almost 9 years old. Wanting to double the system size when I get the new batteries. Grandson is an expert in the field and looking for some good buys for me. Grid power was off a few weeks ago for 3 days, then 2 weeks ago almost a full day. Just normal with wind and trees.
 

proppastie

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
5,803
Location
NJ
The new battery architecture, which uses aluminum and sulfur as its two electrode materials, with a molten salt electrolyte in between,.......

research interesting in order to keep the molten salt hot.....have to be continuous charge and discharge to keep the salts hot enough.

there is gold in them thar hills you too can get a large research grant.
 
Last edited:

addaon

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Messages
2,314
Location
Kanab, UT
Generally molten salt batteries are used at a discharge rate high enough that self-heating from internal resistance is enough to keep the salt molten. If you have a known minimum discharge rate, it's worth increasing the battery internal resistance to achieve this if necessary, since (other than a heat pump) you're not going to get a more efficient system, and you're certainly not going to get a simpler one. Obviously going to a lower melting temperature salt, or reducing heat flux by insulating the battery, helps a lot; this only really becomes a challenge if your minimum discharge rate is quite low, or if you have a wide dynamic range between minimum and maximum discharge.
 

dog

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2019
Messages
807
it needs 90°c ,and in a standby set up,keeping it at
80 and well insulated and kept at temp with solar
pv will reduce start time and 90° c is not going to be hard to maintain,its not like a fuel cell operating at 300°c or higher
experience will tell,the market for large UPS systems is vast,and nobody realy likes how it works now,labour and liability and maintenance costs are high,and the number of sytems installed
just keeps going up,going to a 10 year recertification,with the bulk of the system bieng
retained will be very popular
 

ScaleBirdsScott

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2015
Messages
1,550
Location
Uncasville, CT
Feels like if the application is power for buildings and such, seems like at a minimum you can steady power at least a portion of your HVAC with the batteries to keep them at a base level load, and you can dump whatever heat is being made back over top of the battery first, just to help it run that little bit extra more efficiently. And maybe add computers/servers to that mix.

For aircraft, is there an application for it if it simply requires a pre-heat package that can be left on the ground? And can always have some backup single-use chemical heater packs that can be fired if you need to rapidly get the batt up to temp somewhere remote.
 

Tony Sorgiovanni

New Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2022
Messages
3
Check this site out https:Grahame.com/transport-earth-moving/ . This Australian company in conjunction with the University of Queensland has been developing new battery technology by extracting Graphene powder from LNG and using it and aluminium to produce batteries that they claim have four times the run time than lithium ion batteries and recharge at up to 70 times faster. If they can do half what they claim it will be a game changer. There are no exotic metals or rare earths in their manufacture and require no cooling or heating systems. They have entered into development agreements with the likes of Bosch and are working with one of our largest mining houses Reo Tinto on battery powered locomotives etc. the company trades as GMP (Graphene Manufacturing Group) and is headquartered in Brisbane Australia. Just thought it might be of interest. Regards Tony
 

Victor Bravo

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2014
Messages
11,385
Location
KWHP, Los Angeles CA, USA
Step right up ladies and gentlemen and be the first to experience the life-changing benefits of Graphene... for the positively subterranean price of only one dollar!

Good friends, one tiny drop of this new miracle material will give you the strength of ten men... and make you irresitible to ten women! I have it on the highest authority that a microscopic drizzle of Professor Moller's Graphene into your epoxy resin will create wings that can support the weight of a ship. A half-teaspoon of the Professor's miracle elixir stirred into your tea each morning will immediately free you from joint pain, stomach pain, back pain, foot pain, and all manners of headache and heartache.

shutterstock91706279-snake-oil-sales.jpg
 

SpruceForest

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 23, 2022
Messages
236
I do a tech survey of this stuff every year for transportation use, and there are alternatives, but I think the challenge with any new battery technology is finding the investment dollars to commercialize, given at least 5-7 more years of expensive capital. Lithium was never going to provide the power density or cycles needed for either the 4 months of battery storage needed to green the grid North of I 20 and east of I-35 (big chunk or the US and all of Canada) or capability to support aviation beyond UAS and limited AAM stuff. And just on the storage side, we'd run out of lithium worldwide long before we could support US cities, let alone the rest of NA, Europe, etc. As point of reference, the average Tesla has about 150 lbs of lithium in the battery... so now think of what storage for 4 months or so of power for a town or city would take. Ouch.

For the sunbelt west of I-35, a workable storage technology could leverage all that wind and sun potential, although the capital costs will be a bitter pill for utilities and their customers. For investment to be available, we're probably talking a significant level of advancement beyond lithium in terms of promise density or cycles, or something like at least an order of magnitude lower lifecycle costs AND recharge that occurs in 60-90 seconds. That sort of leap would generate a lot of capital flow to developers (think what Musk had to promise to get sufficient capital in the door to do SpaceX).
 

dog

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2019
Messages
807
Sorry a typo on the address should have read https:graphenemg.com/transport-earth-moving/. Regards Tony
Austrailia has a number of very reputable and proven battery technology researchers and companys,they also have an overwhelming abundance of solar and mineral resources.
when it comes to graphene,well,its one of many
two dimensional materials with properties that
are playing an increasing part in all technological
endevors.
As VB suggests though,the current hype does make for an unfortunate proliferation of dubious
offerings,but as we all know there is no limit what so ever on the things people will throw money at,
and even profit from,right now.
 

proppastie

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
5,803
Location
NJ
things people will throw money at
Grants are a Great way , to advance the sum total of knowledge
for mankind.

Certainly research grants and investment support education and scientific/technical/engineering infrastructure. It is a better investment in our future than many other uses of wealth. I do resent the often misrepresentation and forward looking statements not supported by data.
 
Top