# A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Show

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#### pictsidhe

##### Well-Known Member
Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

At 30:1, it's still around 200 mile range.
Batteries are expensive, something with a decent L/D but less gross weight would be better. Range is proportional to battery capacity : drag, battery cost is proportional to capacity. Make it light! As a friend used to tell me, the lighter you make it, the lighter you can make it.

#### BBerson

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

There should be an optimal cruise altitude. Also, I think with a foldaway prop, periodic engine off porpoise gliding segments gives the best range.

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#### cheapracer

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

Batteries are expensive, something with a decent L/D but less gross weight would be better. Range is proportional to battery capacity : drag, battery cost is proportional to capacity. Make it light! As a friend used to tell me, the lighter you make it, the lighter you can make it.
My whole car sells for $15K retail, 2 to 3 hours range. There is no "make it light", 2 hours of batteries weigh what they weigh, that is set, the object is to build a craft around them, not vice versa, and that thinking is what is limiting electric planes now. I can only see something like a 2 place Facetmobile being a practical solution, something that will still have reasonable wing loading with simple packaging realities. Reading this article may convince people as to my proposition, specific to comparisons on page 23 and 28 .... http://www.wainfan.com/pavreport.pdf VB, no practical person wants to live with a 60ft wingspan plane, they want a "park and drive it". #### pictsidhe ##### Well-Known Member Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh My whole car sells for$15K retail, 2 to 3 hours range.

There is no "make it light", 2 hours of batteries weigh what they weigh, that is set, the object is to build a craft around them, not vice versa, and that thinking is what is limiting electric planes now.

I can only see something like a 2 place Facetmobile being a practical solution, something that will still have reasonable wing loading with simple packaging realities.

Reading this article may convince people as to my proposition, specific to comparisons on page 23 and 28 ....

http://www.wainfan.com/pavreport.pdf

VB, no practical person wants to live with a 60ft wingspan plane, they want a "park and drive it".
The facetmobile is exactly what I'm talking about, less structure weight for a given payload. I believe it also has benign flight characteristics. It's oddball appearance may actually work in it's favour for something as revolutionary as an electric plane. If you can reduce GW by 10% and keep the L/D, that's 10% less batteries to haul it. The trick is to not let the drag climb so much as result that you end up needing more thrust than the heavy version. Keeping total drag down with a small span means keeping the speed up.

##### Well-Known Member
Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

The power and weight numbers look about right. However, the 40:1 best glide is with everything tucked in. With a motor-on-mast rig like a typical self-launch sailplane, I'd put the best glide at about 24:1, and with a motor-in-nose rig like FES I'd put the under power best glide at like 32:1. At issue with the latter is that the prop wake will be turbulent; I think that increases drag for the fuselage and for the wing/body junction.

--Bob K.
Put an outrunner around the tail boom. Zero extra drag in both modes

#### pictsidhe

##### Well-Known Member
Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

Put an outrunner around the tail boom. Zero extra drag in both modes
That could even reduce cockpit drag. Goldschmeid and Glauert stuff comes to mind.

#### 12notes

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

If you'd like to see what the prototype "unveiled" looks like, this article has a nice picture. You may notice some slight changes from the CAD drawings, in that it's the size of a medium RC plane, has a single pusher prop, no v-tail, a single canopy with little room for passengers or cargo if scaled up, completely different combination wing/tail design, is way shorter and has different relative sizes in every dimension.

But it is painted white with silver accents, exactly like the drawings. They've certainly proved the color concept works.

#### cheapracer

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

If you'd like to see what the prototype "unveiled" looks like, this article has a nice picture.
Synergy telephoned, they want their model back :gig:

#### pictsidhe

##### Well-Known Member
Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

Aluminium refining is an environmentally dirty process using huge amounts of fossil fuels and electelectricity. Al-air batteries don't make sense for bulk energy storage.

#### 12notes

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

If one of the wing-tip engines fail on takeoff or landing approach, I certainly wouldn't like to be the pilot.
I think you misunderstand their target customers - they're not pilots, they're investors. The plane is not the product, the company is.

#### pictsidhe

##### Well-Known Member
Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

I think you misunderstand their target customers - they're not pilots, they're investors. The plane is not the product, the company is.
D'oh! I'm just not cynical enough yet either!

#### pictsidhe

##### Well-Known Member
Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

"the plane weights 300 times less than others of the saame size"
Hmmmm, sounds rather good.
Looking at the art, the passenger compartment is mostly behind the cg.
I think I may stop bothering with "seeking investors"
Projects.

#### Aviator168

##### Well-Known Member
Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

I'm not getting political at all, or taking either side, it just makes me laugh at all the climate change articles I see when 90% of the time they show a picture of steam pouring out!
Steam is a worse green gas than CO2.

I just read today where the Tesla battery pack manufacturing process puts out the same CO2 emissions as 8 years of driving a modern gasoline powered car, not to mention the generating CO2 footprint.
Hate to burst your bubble. You have to compare the total CO2 footprints of making a comparable gasoline car and the Tesla. Until than, everything is just speculation or worse, propaganda.

#### cheapracer

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

Steam is a worse green gas than CO2.
I'm not that savvy on the knowledge, care to explain please?

#### Aesquire

##### Well-Known Member
Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

It has to do with the spectra of light in the infrared that is reflected back to the earth from the atmosphere.
Water vapor is a Much more powerful greenhouse gas. So is Methane, produced by swamps, garbage dumps, and animal metabolism. ( you surely know jokes about lighting such gasses. YouTube has many videos of idjits lighting their pants on fire. )

There's a reason that farmers and waste disposal companies collect the Methane from garbage dumps and manure piles. It's not only free energy, you get tax credits for reducing greenhouse emissions.

This forum does not allow religious arguments for good reason. So I will not comment on the religious propaganda & extremism surrounding this subject.

#### Aesquire

##### Well-Known Member
Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

I'm all for the electric car, bike, airplane, space drive.

I might get an electric bike for recreation. ( to augment my 3 conventional bikes. Although I should sell my racing bike that I haven't ridden in years. )

I'm unlikely to get an electric car. I routinely drive longer than available ranges. There's a financial limit to my toys.

Ditto for electric planes. Although I am very tempted to talk to BoKu about his self launch sailplane in development.

It's all about the batteries. They are improving as we speak. Not, alas, as fast as we might like or are being sold by some people.

Some of these folk are honestly optimistic. Others are con men. Sometimes the difference is easy to tell. Often it is not.

I was fooled by one electric motor glider company that had lovely pictures of imaginary aircraft flying in exotic world locations. I assumed they were a con. I was wrong. They have actual flying hardware. I don't think after several years they have a commercial flying electric model but it's in progress.

Pipistrel has a flying product you can buy. A few others do too.

Last I looked the market was tiny and the aircraft fall into the self launch glider or glider sustainer category. But in your lifetime there most probably will be Cessna trainer versions and in your children's day, RV-X equivalent planes.

The pretty picture folk from the OP want you to think their product is ready next week. Bet ya not.

#### pictsidhe

##### Well-Known Member
Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

There seems to be a new electric wonderplane project every week. Most of them don't seem viable. This one doesn't even have a mockup and the weight and balance is visibly wrong. That doesn't scream cutting edge competence to me. It's also environmentally dirty. The Lilium looks a much better bet, though I suspect it depends on tomorrow's battery tech.
But, they're electric man, wooooo!

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