A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Show

Discussion in 'Hangar Flying' started by Wayne, Jun 22, 2017.

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  1. Jun 23, 2017 #21

    rv6ejguy

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    Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

    I just read today where the Tesla battery pack manufacturing process puts out the same CO2 emissions as 8 years of driving a modern gasoline powered car, not to mention the generating CO2 footprint.
     
  2. Jun 23, 2017 #22

    SpainCub

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    Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

    Where is the data coming from? A Discovery coverage of Mega construction? :D That one station produces 20% or their total coal production.

    http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.ELC.COAL.ZS?locations=DE

    Have a look a current data and see for your self, don't take my word for it.
    What such is, in the EU, Spain has the most days of sun on average in Europe, an only 1/18th of the solar stations in Germany. I'm been taxed from been off Grid (arg)

    Regards,
     
  3. Jun 23, 2017 #23

    MikePousson

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    Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

    Having worked in an oil refinery for over 30 years, I can assure you that if you see white stuff coming out of flare stacks, it's not pollution. Steam is injected at the tip to supply a Venturi effect to draw more air into the burn. There is CO emissions for sure. Steam wafting out of cooling towers, similar to the one Cheapracer posted is not steam as we know it. That is similar to exhaling in a very cold air, and you can see your breath.
    I use the term "zero emissions" to mean after manufacture. I know of nothing that doesn't leave a carbon footprint when it is being made.
    As far as that pretty 600 mile electric airplane, I'll believe it when I see it... kinda like Icon A5

    Having driven a Tesla, i'd own one in a heartbeat if it had $85,000+ laying around.
     
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  4. Jun 23, 2017 #24

    pictsidhe

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    Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

    A regular car also has a substantial amount of CO2 made during it's manufacture, I forget the numbers, but it is many years of driving.
     
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  5. Jun 23, 2017 #25

    BJC

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    Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

    Also not to mention that they never have made an annual profit.


    BJC
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  6. Jun 23, 2017 #26

    Aesquire

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    Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh



    Consider that a Harmon Rocket with a 540 cu. inch engine can get better fuel economy than a RV-7 with a 360 cu. inch engine, flying at comparable speed. ( because the Rocket is throttled back to economy cruise, while the RV has the hammer down )

    I once read an editorial that the ultimate car might be a Fiskar, with the drive train ripped out and a LS Chevy aluminum block engine shoehorned in. The Fiskar has a very expensive, and very good suspension, and very luxurious interior. The LS engine has good power, and won't turn your car into a Brick if you park it for a week. I don't know if anyone has tried it, but it would be a world class car.

    I had to admire Fiskar for knowing it's target market. The high end version some years back had Vegan Leather interior, and a fossilized leaf embedded in the console. Rich people with a desire to show off how virtuous they are is a limited, but lucrative market.

    Which returns us to the imaginary airplane with the unobtanium batteries, and the same target market. Rich, virtue signalling showoffs.

    I shouldn't knock those folk, I'd love to be one. The virtues I'd brag about might be a bit different.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2019
  7. Jun 23, 2017 #27

    tspear

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    Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

    The rich may be early adopters, but most of the EV owners, and people like myself interested in EV planes it really is about a combination of simplicity and cost. By simplicity, I am referencing an electric motor with a couple of moving parts versus an ICE having a few thousand moving parts; plus consider the MX aspect. Which one is easier to maintain? Lastly, is costs, electricity is cheaper then gas. So if the storage can be solved, then EV is the way to go.

    Tim
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2019
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  8. Jun 23, 2017 #28

    Aesquire

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    Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

    I may mock the show off rich, ( for whatever reason they show off ) but I'm well aware that it's because a few people buy a Bugatti, or Tesla, ( or Learjet, or.... ) that is how you pay for the technology that gets used in the VW or Leaf, or........

    Carbon fiber is a good example. Once an exotic material, it became cheaper because of it's marketing to the moderately wealthy, in the form of tennis rackets, golf clubs, etc. There's also the military uses, where tax dollars paid to develop something that later became widespread. ( carbon fiber, again )

    Why did the US become a leader in micro processors? Sure, there's a lot of consumer use now, but it really boils down to American rocket tech was a bit more sophisticated, but not as powerful as Soviet rocketry. ( which you can trace back to Operation Paper Clip, and how the U.S. got German scientists, and the Soviets got German technicians ) An example, from the 1950's, a relay in space will fail because the metal contacts will vacuum weld together. The Soviet response was to put the relay in a sealed metal can. The U.S. couldn't afford the weight, so developed gold plated contacts. Transistors on a circuit board vs. traces on a silicon chip.

    After burning jet engines and many other things don't seem to fit the "military paid for it and now we use it" mold, ( unless you flew trans Atlantic on Discorde ) but you'd be surprised.
     
  9. Jun 23, 2017 #29

    cheapracer

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    Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

    As most know by now i own electric cars, Tesla and a JAC.

    My biggest concern for our plane ownership median would be how to charge at smaller airfields.

    Firstly there's not going to be a 'Supercharger' there, so the sub 1 hour charge is nonsense, you are looking at 6 to 8 hours for the less than 1 hour return flight home.

    You will have to get to that power point, and I can imagine at some fields that will not only be a hassle to access, IF no one else has it/them tied up, but there may be some fields where there simply isn't any. You're not going to get a lift into town and put electricity into a jerry can ...


    Anyway, I have just applied for a Local Government grant to develop an electric plane, interesting times ahead if I get it.

    I have no doubt with current tech to get 2 hours + flight time the answer is a flying wing/delta something in order to both carry the extra weight, and room for batteries.
     
  10. Jun 23, 2017 #30

    tspear

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    Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

    Wouldn't a canard or tandem wing be easier to develop?

    Tim
     
  11. Jun 23, 2017 #31

    BoKu

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    Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

    That Tesla Battery Emissions Study Making the Rounds? It's Bunk.
     
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  12. Jun 23, 2017 #32

    Aesquire

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    Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

    I'm not too surprised that any eco-blame article is wrong.

    Darn. I was going to buy a Tesla so I could fight the upcoming Ice age.

    I guess I'll just get the old Dodge van with the slant six instead and save myself the cost of my mortgage. Or an old diesel pickup to replace my 40+ mpg VW TDI that I have to send back before they make it illegal to drive.

    I'm serious except for the part where I can afford a Tesla. The sporty one is a really nice car.

    What happened to planes that run on Booze? Other than needing a much larger fuel tank to get the same range, and replacing the entire fuel system with stainless steel parts & lines, ( and possibly the fuel tanks themselves, which may not tolerate booze... Is that a Lancair turned into a puddle on the tarmac? ) the high octane equiv. would let the 100LL planes keep trucking in a lead free world.

    I can't find the original article, but there was an Aussie with an electric car that made a small generator equipped trailer to charge his car as he traversed the long distances between islands of civilization there. ( very much like America ) The aircraft version of that would be a "belly tank" with generator, a removable hybrid module.
     
  13. Jun 24, 2017 #33

    BJC

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    Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

    That is an interesting concept.


    BJC
     
  14. Jun 24, 2017 #34

    Victor Bravo

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    Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

    Cheapracer, before you do anything in the delta or flying wing area, PLEASE tale a look at contest sailplanes, even the 1980's versions that I flew.

    My beloved Ventus B, which actually burned up in a hangar fire, had some very interesting specifications:

    1102 lb gross weight, 500 pound empty weight, leaving 602 pounds useful load.

    602 useful, minus 225 pound pilot/parachute, leaves 377 pounds of "cargo" (used for 40 gallons of water ballast as a racing sailplane).

    Even if 100 pounds of that "cargo" were taken up by an electric motor, propeller and controller, that leaves 277 pounds for batteries.

    Now, here's the interesting part of the equation... The Ventus sailplane had a little over 40-1 glide ratio at gross weight, at probably 65-70 miles per hour, which means that at 1102 pounds gross weight it only made 27 pounds of drag. So after a 3 minute sprint of full power to take off, the power consumption can be reduced to provide only 27 pounds of thrust.

    So even after a full power takeoff, how long could 277 pounds worth of modern battery put out enough voltage and current to create 27 pounds of thrust from a modern electric motor and a decent propeller? I believe it may be more than two hours.

    So I'm pretty certain that if you want to build a two hour electric airplane, just like all of the other viable electric airplanes it's going to look like a sailplane and not an XB-70.
     
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  15. Jun 24, 2017 #35

    BoKu

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    Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

    You were at Barstow?
     
  16. Jun 24, 2017 #36

    Victor Bravo

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    Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

    Yes, I was at Barstow for the 1987 15 Meter Nationals. My Ventus burned up along with 15 other sailplanes, an A-26 warbird, and several high end motorhomes owned by the competitors. The Dollar and the Deutschmark had just flipped on each other right about that time, so the used glider I paid $30K to buy earlier that year... insured for the full 30K... cost $70K to replace after the fire. I didn't even get to make the last flight in my own glider, the contest director (Trip Mellinger) had asked me if he could fly the glider on the past practice day to check out the area because he was calling the tasks. I managed to borrow an AS-W20 from someone in Tehachapi that same day, and flew the contest. I think I made 17th or something, not terrible for a glider I had never flown that had been set up for the preferences of another guy. But I couldn't get anywhere near Striedieck and his posse that had come out from the East. He won it hands down, the smarmy bastard. We had an F-15 from Edwards start circling 2000 feet under a gaggle of ten gliders on one of the contest days out near Hector VOR, scared the holy crap out of us. Five or six years later I was telling that story at at an ESA or VSA weekend at Tehachapi, and I was saying how I was scared to death that one of us was going to get swallowed by that F-15, the noise was deafening. One of the glider guys just strolled up and said "naahhh, you guy's weren't in any danger, I had all ten of you on the targeting radar we were testing...". True story.
     
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  17. Jun 24, 2017 #37

    BoKu

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    Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

    Condolences, that's a sad story. I remember Don Hurd telling me about eyeballing his exit path, and deliberately running the motorhome over one of the fenceposts for the chainlink fence. That way the post flattened the fencing onto the ground so the motorhome and trailer passed over it without getting entangled.

    When Striedeck and Murray came to Bryan for Dick Schreder's memorial service, they spent about half their time whining at each other about how unfair the tasking was at some contest. Blah blah blah, unlandable terrain, blah blah blah thunderstorms. I thought, geez, what would Dick have made of such talk?

    --Bob K.
     
  18. Jun 24, 2017 #38

    rv6ejguy

    rv6ejguy

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    Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

    Was only comparing battery part to the gasoline part. The Tesla has most of the other parts of a conventional car as well.
     
  19. Jun 24, 2017 #39

    pictsidhe

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    Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

    30m/s, 120N = 3600W (4.8hp)
    80% propulsive efficiency, 4500W (6hp)
    120kg batts at 200Wh/kg = 24kWh
    24kWh/4500W = 5.33 hours.

    250-300 mile range, without using any thermals?
     
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  20. Jun 24, 2017 #40

    BoKu

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    Re: A new all-electric aircraft with a range up to 600 miles unveiled at Paris Air Sh

    The power and weight numbers look about right. However, the 40:1 best glide is with everything tucked in. With a motor-on-mast rig like a typical self-launch sailplane, I'd put the best glide at about 24:1, and with a motor-in-nose rig like FES I'd put the under power best glide at like 32:1. At issue with the latter is that the prop wake will be turbulent; I think that increases drag for the fuselage and for the wing/body junction.

    --Bob K.
     
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