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Pilot-34

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The report says drones are not allowed within 5 miles from the airport that seems to be a lie.
The report says that they had to dodge the drone and that it was hovering one of those is a lie.
At that point I don’t believe anything that comes out of any of the news crew mouth.
So I don’t know if the drone was hovering at 800 feet.

The crew also insinuates that they often fly at 140 mile an hour at 800 feet above ground in congested areas.
Is that even legal?
And you’re right a Robin falling on the back window of a car is probably not likely to do much damage. But what about a goose falling from 10 or 20,000 feet it might do quite a bit of damage do a baby carriage or sunbather.

Now Let me be really clear I don’t approve of the actions of the drone.
I don’t think they should be allowed without the permission of everyone within their veiw.
I also feel the same way about news helicopters.
 

Pops

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A new reporter is the last person that I would trust in telling the truth. Yes, I have a beef.
11PM local news reports that my wife and I were killed in an airplane crash. Gave our names and the area where we lived. Our two oldest children were at a HS football game. The youngest 14 year old son was watching the news but decided it was time to raid the refrigerator and missed the news report, but my parents ,neighbors and other family members were watching the news.
No apologies , none. scum of the earth. In person, I would tell you what I really think, well maybe not, my mother would never allow me to use that type of language. And out of respect for her, I wouldn't.

Dan
 

Hephaestus

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Here's what I see on both cases...

You've got a drone operating in an area. In both cases a helicopter that just arrived and had near miss / struck the RPV/UAV/Drone/Whatever terminology you want to use.

The helicopters approached - likely at 60-90mph, the RPVs were pretty stationary. There's this old rule about which aircraft gives way - usually associated to balloons / airships.

The federal agencies have said this use of airspace is allowed. (We'll ignore specific locations) If an unauthorized aircraft is in class b - you don't just hit it because you're authorized, he's not... See and avoid - they're all working under VFR rules. Some of the fault here lies on the manned aircraft - we're going to have to get better at scanning for drones when flying low level over cities - especially the police and tv helicopters.

But again, I'm licensed on both so... I see both sides, and want both sides to flourish... Some of the attitudes on both sides suck.
 

Bille Floyd

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...

But again, I'm licensed on both so... I see both sides, and want both sides to flourish... Some of the attitudes on both sides suck.
Feels really, "Good" ; knowing that there are Still, reasonable
humans, on this planet !!!
 

Appowner

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Gang, maybe I can clear the air a bit as to the rules. Being a RC Modeler/flyer for some 50 years now, any interaction with full scale concerns me. I am a member here primarily because both activities share a lot of common build techniques. That said:

First of all there two categories of small Unmanned Aerial Systems (sUAS). Commercial and recreational. All I know of the commercial side is they fly under Part 107 and require a sort of flight plan in order to fly.

Recreational is what most think of as RC Models and to that end:

All sUAS Pilots flying anything over 250 milligrams (roughly a stick of butter or 8.8 ounces) MUST be registered with the FAA. They must also display their registration number on the outside of their drones/models. And I believe one must be 16 to register.

When registration first started over one million people signed up. Currently the first renewal period is going on and it looks like maybe half are not renewing. No doubt there are a lot of good reasons for this but I can't help but wonder how many are simply blowing it off.

Under the FAA rules sUAS are restricted to no higher than 400 feet AGL. There are exceptions to this but it requires prior coordination/approval with the FAA.

Flying within 5 miles of any airport is allowed provided coordination with the airport authorities, ATC, etc has been done ahead of time. And 400 ft would again be the limit without prior authorization/coordination.

Flying over buildings is not allowed. Ditto for groups of people not involved with the drone. So all these YouTube videos you see of parks, little league games, etc. Big Bozo No! No! Legally I can not take off from my 1 acre back yard and fly over the farm field right behind me.

Live Video is currently NOT allowed. However, cameras that take pictures/video for later viewing are now OK. Or so I've been told. The goal is the FAA does not want the guy holding the radio to have his head buried in a hood. Can't say as I blame them.

Flying beyond ones line of sight is not allowed. IOW, if you can't see it, you can't control it and therefore can't fly it. This pertains to the guy with his hands on the controls.

A means of remote ID (RID) is going to be implemented with full integration in I believe two years. Details are still being worked but think of it as a sort of ADS-B for drones. Initially the FAA wanted the RID to be part of the RC Radio with no means other than a new radio to upgrade existing models. Realizing (finally) what this meant to the Hobby the FAA is allowing a means to retrofit existing models and radios.

The real problem as I see it is the vast majority of these "Drones" are regarded as toys by the general public. Many have been purchased and used to cruise around the house, chase the wife, kids, cat, etc. Some have spied on the neighbors and so on. However, some have also been used to film (unauthorized) the Blue Angels, commercial air on final, forest fires, etc. The owners have little or no knowledge of what these things can do to a full size and they're like kids skateboarding on any interstate.

Unfortunately technology has made it possible for any idiot to buy and play with these things. A lot of drones fly themselves. The pilot using his cell phone to tell the drone where to go and the drone then flies itself sending video back to the phone. Battery technology has allowed them to go 30 minutes or more. And spare batteries can have you back in the air in minutes. And new battery technology promises hours of endurance in not too many years.

I feel for you guys flying full size. And I would be happy to join any of you in pounding some of these Droners into the ground.
 

Pilot-34

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A new reporter is the last person that I would trust in telling the truth. Yes, I have a beef.
11PM local news reports that my wife and I were killed in an airplane crash. Gave our names and the area where we lived. Our two oldest children were at a HS football game. The youngest 14 year old son was watching the news but decided it was time to raid the refrigerator and missed the news report, but my parents ,neighbors and other family members were watching the news.
No apologies , none. scum of the earth. In person, I would tell you what I really think, well maybe not, my mother would never allow me to use that type of language. And out of respect for her, I wouldn't.

Dan
A very similar situation is part of my disrespect for the news agencies
 

Pilot-34

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It would seem as if the helicopters biggest beef with drones is how hard they are to see.
It’s also a factor with the general population
Perhaps a rule for a super high intensity strobe light would help with both?
As an airplane pilot that rule would please me too.
I supposed to be fair the rest of the aircraft in the sky should be included
 

Vigilant1

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Here's what I see on both cases...

You've got a drone operating in an area. In both cases a helicopter that just arrived and had near miss / struck the RPV/UAV/Drone/Whatever terminology you want to use.

The helicopters approached - likely at 60-90mph, the RPVs were pretty stationary. There's this old rule about which aircraft gives way - usually associated to balloons / airships.
But in the case of the drone strike on the LAPD chopper, this isn't at all what happened. Here's a report from the US Attorney's office: Hollywood Man Pleads Guilty to Federal Charge that He Recklessly Operated Drone that Collided with and Damaged LAPD Helicopter

The drone pilot knew there were police vehicles and helicopters at the scene. He deliberately flew toward them "to see what the commotion was about." (Probably wanted to obtain video to sell, but that's my guess). It was nighttime. The LAPD helicopter crew did see the drone and tried to take evasive action, but the drone hit the helicopter anyway.

Airspace is a limited asset that various users must share. We have rules that are in place to recognize and deconflict the rights and interests of these groups. It places responsibilities on all participants. If reckless drone operators can't be reigned in, look for greater restrictions. This idiot got fined just $500 after breaking the rules and striking a helicopter. In my view, that's not enough to send the signal that needs to be sent.
 
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Hephaestus

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Airspace is a limited asset that various users must share. We have rules that are in place to recognize and deconflict the rights and interests of these groups. It places responsibilities on all participants. If reckless drone operators can't be reigned in, look for greater restrictions. This idiot got fined just $500 after breaking the rules and striking a helicopter. In my view, that's not enough to send the signal that needs to be sent.
Trying not to get into specific instances... More the generalities.

We've got an issue where we've got reckless drone operators yes, and pilots who have not yet learned the skills to scan for drones (and I'd argue some of them are being a bit reckless too).

Meanwhile FAA is moving towards allowing commercial drone delivery. Who knows when traffic advisory will come in - before or after that starts (given some commercial back and forth at hospitals is occurring by drones - pretty safe to say after). What's going to happen when swarms of amazon deliveries start going out by drone?

We're going to have to figure out how to get along from both sides before long. And the expectation of always clear airspace is probably a thing of the past - so these police/tv/traffic helicopters (and probably some GA pilots) are going to need to learn to scan a bit differently, and understand there are other legitimate users. Yeah there's going to be violations on both sides - there's always mistakes; the problem is we don't have practice / tools / skills to deconflict so far.
 

dog

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There are some very heavy bets down on the development and certification of drones for package delivery and taxis.
Paperatzi drones are going to be quaint.
Anyway from reading all the rules (not allowed to do anything) around RC/drones its sounds like getting a hombuilt flying is going go be simpler and more fun.
I think that the drone rules are paving the way for comercialization.
 

Bill-Higdon

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But in the case of the drone strike on the LAPD chopper, this isn't at all what happened. Here's a report from the US Attorney's office: Hollywood Man Pleads Guilty to Federal Charge that He Recklessly Operated Drone that Collided with and Damaged LAPD Helicopter

The drone pilot knew there were police vehicles and helicopters at the scene. He deliberately flew toward them "to see what the commotion was about." (Probably wanted to obtain video to sell, but that's my guess). It was nighttime. The LAPD helicopter crew did see the drone and tried to take evasive action, but the drone hit the helicopter anyway.

Airspace is a limited asset that various users must share. We have rules that are in place to recognize and deconflict the rights and interests of these groups. It places responsibilities on all participants. If reckless drone operators can't be reigned in, look for greater restrictions. This idiot got fined just $500 after breaking the rules and striking a helicopter. In my view, that's not enough to send the signal that needs to be sent.
I also know of 2 cases where it was verified drones caused fire fighting aircraft to cancel a drop
 

Pilot-34

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If Vendor start delivering packages by drone the skies will be pretty much un flyable by humans
In my community we’re talking a traffic increase of literally thousands of times.
I live near town of 400 people other than myself the grass strip here sees two or three operations a month
But we’re talking well over 1000 packages delivered in a month. None of which is takeout food , Farm parts delivery or anything from the local hardware store.
All of which would become practical with drone delivery.
I can’t think of any reason that all these people shouldn’t be able to share the skies too so essentially I think it would end free flight as we know it everything would have to be part of the ultra controlled computerized air traffic system.
 

dog

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If Vendor start delivering packages by drone the skies will be pretty much un flyable by humans
In my community we’re talking a traffic increase of literally thousands of times.
I live near town of 400 people other than myself the grass strip here sees two or three operations a month
But we’re talking well over 1000 packages delivered in a month. None of which is takeout food , Farm parts delivery or anything from the local hardware store.
All of which would become practical with drone delivery.
I can’t think of any reason that all these people shouldn’t be able to share the skies too so essentially I think it would end free flight as we know it everything would have to be part of the ultra controlled computerized air traffic system.
Reliability will be the most significant hurdle for
drones,as any unsheduled landing will require a recovery crew faster than the niehborhood kids.It is very likely that drone delivery will be a
hybrid service, with large trucks on a route,dispatching and recovering, recharging drones.All happening under 200'agl,and flights
of a couple miles.
So very unlikely to have significant impact on GA.
Likewise vtol airtaxi is going to have inherant limitations restricting its adoption to large citys
with with nothing but controlled airspace,also
likely to operate under 1000'agl and trips under 25 miles.
Again not a concern for GA.
As to the the subject of milnery,that will hopefully be adressed with better radar in the sub millimeter range that will give a complete picture of what is in the air,literaly every single thing,birds, bugs,dronez,every rain drop,dust,local chemical composition,etc,etc.
Tracking stuff back becomes less of an issue,
and in the case of drone swarms there is lots
of work bieng done to counter that threat.
Drone and other nusiance hazards (lasers)are more sensational than a real threat.
And as to head coverings I had a cessna 337 come around reduce altitude and take out my kite! IYBO!,bamboo and paper but still.
 

Appowner

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How is the rules set up so that you can’t fly over the field behind your house?
Too close to housing. If my house was the only one I could probably get away with it. But to get to the farmers field I would have to pass by a neighbors house. Not go over it but simply pass by. I think there's a "no closer than" rule for neighborhoods and such but right now it escapes me.
 

Appowner

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It would seem as if the helicopters biggest beef with drones is how hard they are to see.
It’s also a factor with the general population
Perhaps a rule for a super high intensity strobe light would help with both?
As an airplane pilot that rule would please me too.
I supposed to be fair the rest of the aircraft in the sky should be included
A lot of drones are no bigger than a crow or turkey buzzard. Flying individually they're not that easy to see in time to avoid them. Fortunately in the case of birds there is a second brain at work on the scene. Maybe not the smartest being a bird but I think it's still smarter than a lot of drone pilots.
 

JMKD

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A couple of points:
1) The helicopter was hovering mostly about 600', but as low as about 400' near the YouFit (the altitude resolution on FlightRadar looks to be about 100'). See screenshot from FlightRadar24 below. Since the video of the drone was below the helicopter, it's possible that the drone was under the applicable altitude limit (more below), but it's worth noting that the reported 800' altitude is almost certainly incorrect.
IMG_0235.png

2) The location looks like it is under a Class B shelf and probably about a 1/2 mile inside the Class D of Miami Executive airport. In either case, an approval is required.

3) The FAA has grids around Miami Executive airport showing what altitudes can be approved without a separate safety analysis. The red dot is the YouFit where the car accident occurred, which is right on the border of a 300' and 400' grid. This does not mean you can fly at those locations/altitudes without a waiver, but it does mean you can get a waiver through an automated process, though either a LAANC provider, or the FAA's DroneZone site.
A quote from 3DR's website: "If your LAANC request is at or below the published grid altitude for your area of operation, your flight should be approved automatically and nearly instantly."
I haven't used this myself, but the capability is available through a few mobile apps.
FAA alt grids.png
3) Public Safety organizations are active users of drones. I know Palm Beach Sherriff's Office to the north of here, as well as Miami County Sherriff are both active drone users; I expect they have blanket waivers to fly under the grid altitudes, but I don't know that for sure (they do have a waiver to fly at night, but the the grid waivers follow a different waiver process, the public waivers here don't cover the automated grid altitude waivers). I haven't seen any info either way, but it's possible that it was a public safety drone responding to the accident.

So, while the 800' altitude reported by the helicopter crew is almost certainly wrong, I don't see any public info that can positively confirm or disprove if the drone operator had a waiver to fly there, and if so, whether the the drone was indeed below the grid altitude. But, it's plausible that it was a completely legal drone flight.
 

Hephaestus

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If Vendor start delivering packages by drone the skies will be pretty much un flyable by humans
Not really - this is the push for adsb... DJI and others are starting to monitor adsb out - and you're grounded when there's an aircraft nearby (I recently learned this trying to get a trent palmer like chase shot for a friend; had to turn off his skybeacon to be able to fly the drone)

But most planes aren't going to be flying at 500', unless right near an airport. Guessing we'll see some IFR like airways at low level for UAV/RPVs implemented in time; and hopefully a full adsb like system coming online. Problem is it's not linked to GA - so manned pilots don't get a warning of traffic... That's the problematic part I think.
 

Vigilant1

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JMKD,
Welcome to HBA, and thanks for the additional information.
It will be very interesting to see the result of the reported investigation. The investigators will have high quality altitude info for the helicopter, will be able to see >all< the video they shot, and will know if this drone operator applied for (or needed) permission to enter this airspace.
The news report said the helicopter was at 800 feet. The crew didn't say that in the video clip, so it might or might not be accurate. Anyone who has talked to a reporter and then watched the result knows that they often get things wrong. The short video from the helicopter of the drone showed the underside of the drone and nothing but sky behind it-- looked to me like the helicopter was looking up at the drone.
 
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