582 Aftermarket Tuned Exhaust

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kkinzie

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Jun 19, 2011
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Kitchener, Ontario
Anyone know where a 582 aftermarket tuned exhaust could be found? Like one from R & D Aerosports that is out of business. Considering the negative issues on bottom/midrange associated with them, there must be some to be found somewhere collecting dust. For our aerotow tug that operates primarily at full throttle it may be a viable option.
 

Tim Newport

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Joined
Oct 3, 2019
Messages
9
Anyone know where a 582 aftermarket tuned exhaust could be found? Like one from R & D Aerosports that is out of business. Considering the negative issues on bottom/midrange associated with them, there must be some to be found somewhere collecting dust. For our aerotow tug that operates primarily at full throttle it may be a viable option.
I have been looking for tuned pipes for awhile with no success. You would think a company would design and make tuned pipes for our engines. Even trying to find someone with the ability to make one is a joke.
 

n3puppy

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Jun 25, 2019
Messages
257
I see the "582 Rave" making that kind of power. But I think this involves installing something like 583 cylinders on the 582, and I would love to see the dyno on this. This is all I could find: Pricing
Yes that 582 Rave motor sure seems like it is based on 583 cylinders.

Back in the day R&D Aero did produce a pipe for the 582UL - [email protected] rpm.
Just guessing, but would think that Rotax Ricks reported 79hp @ 6400 would be close to R&D's numbers throughout the entire range.

FF775007-CCB0-4214-A8C7-148210D4022C.jpeg
 

Armilite

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AMES, IA USA
I see the "582 Rave" making that kind of power. But I think this involves installing something like 583 cylinders on the 582, and I would love to see the dyno on this. This is all I could find: Pricing
===============

RAVE Valves don't make you more hp, they move the Toque Power Band down for good midrange power till they open up, which can mean a better GPH use. Like comparing a 670 with RAVE vs the 582UL Non-RAVE at the same say 65hp setting means about 1.0gph better with the 670. The RAVE Valves don't even open up till around 6100+rpm, I think, which you're only turning at 6500rpm for 2-3 minutes for takeoff.

It would be best to write or call Rotax Rick and see what are the differences pro's & Con's in using his 75-79hp Exhaust kit on the 582UL Cylinders vs with the 583 RAVE Cylinders.

580cc/7cc= 82.8hp@6500rpm and should be considered max hp for Airplane use with a 580cc Engine. As can be seen above a 582UL made 80.7hp@6500rpm with R&D Aero's Tuned Pipe.

A 580cc Engine making [email protected]: 79hp x 75% = 59.25hp! For comparison 65hp x 75% = 48.75hp.
at 6250rpm = 76hp.
at 6000rpm = 73hp.
at 5750rpm = 70hp.
at 5500rpm = 67hp.
at 5250rpm = 64hp.
at 5000rpm = 61hp.
at 4900rpm = 60hp.
at 4850rpm = 59hp. 75% Cruise better than the Stock 582UL.
at 4800rpm = 58hp.
 

Armilite

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AMES, IA USA
Take that R&D Aero 582UL Tuned Pipe and Graph it in Excel to see the Power Band, does it have glitches or some people call them Dead Spots in the Power Band? A Good Tuned Pipe Power Band should go in a straight line from when the Engine starts making real good Power usually 3500+ for a 2 Stroke to its intended Max rpm which in our case 6500rpm where it then starts dropping off usually about +100-150rpm.

I have seen Rotax Ricks 670 Dyno print and it has no Glitches or Dead Spots in the Powerband. I haven't seen this 75-79hp 580/582/583 Exhaust Dyno print.

Like this 380HO Dyno Print doesn't show us the lower end 3500-5000rpm, but you can see it's a fairly straight line from 5000rpm to its intended 7000rpm. There is a small blip at about 5900rpm, but not too bad. Was it the Tuned Pipe or the guy working the Throttle? 368.8cc/7cc = [email protected] You can see by this Dyno print it's making around 52-53hp at 6500rpm.

368.8cc making [email protected]:
at 6750rpm = 55.2hp.
at 6500rpm = 53.1hp. 75% Power is 39.8hp. For comparison (377UL) 35hp x 75% = 26.25hp.
at 6250rpm = 51.1hp.
at 6000rpm = 49.0hp.
at 5750rpm = 47.0hp.
at 5500rpm = 44.9hp.
at 5250rpm = 42.9hp.
at 5000rpm = 40.9hp.
at 4875rpm = 39.8hp. 75% Power!
at 4850rpm = 39.6hp.
at 4750rpm = 38.8hp.
380HO 57.26hp@7000rpms.jpg

The 380HO Stock, using 11.2cr was [email protected] with a pair of 30mm Carbs and Skidoo's Tuned Pipe and was only made for (4-5 Years) 2002 to 2006 and only sold in 5-6 Countries mainly overseas out of about 225 Countries in the World. Skidoo dropped the 380F, 380HO, 440F around 2006-2008. The 503F was dropped in 2003 with the release of the new 550F. The Standard 2002 to 2006 380 used 9.6cr and also with a pair of 30mm Carbs with a Muffler and was rated [email protected] Total 380HO Production numbers are unknown. Most Hard Core USA/Canadian Skidoo Sledders have never even heard of them, let alone most Airplane guys. If you could buy a 380HO that makes 57hp, would you Buy a 440F, 503F, 470LC for more Money? The 377UL (380F) using 9.6cr with a Single 36mm Bing 54 was rated [email protected]

So can you build a 380HO out of 377F/380F, Yes! Can you make a 277HO, 440HO, 503HO, using the same Specifications, Yes! A 277F, 380F, 440F, 503F Intake can handle up to a 38mm Carb without any Machining or Welding. Since all Liquid Cooled (LC) Engines use 11.5cr and the 277UL uses 11.8cr and the 380HO was 11.2cr, only the 380F, 440F, and the 503F need upgraded to 11.5cr. All the Engines could use some, Cylinder & Case PORTING! Most could use a Carb upgrade to 38mm. They All could use a Custom made Tuned Pipe designed for our Max 6500rpm.

277F = 268.4cc/7cc = [email protected]
380F = 368.4cc/7cc = [email protected]
440F = 436.7cc/7cc = [email protected]
503F = 496.9cc/7cc = [email protected]

470LC = 463.0cc/7cc = [email protected]
521LC = 521.3cc/7cc = [email protected]
582LC = 580.9cc/7cc = [email protected]
617LC = 617.2cc/7cc = [email protected]
670LC = 669.2cc/7cc = [email protected]

In reality, for most, USA Part 103, probably 36+hp will push them over the 55 knots Full Power Speed anyway. Most Part 103 Ultralights and many Small Kitplanes only need 26hp to 40hp based on their MTOW which falls in the 450 lbs to 660 lbs range!
 

n3puppy

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Jun 25, 2019
Messages
257
"If you could buy a 380HO that makes 57hp, would you Buy a 440F, 503F, 470LC for more Money?"

Would I buy a 57hp 38HO it if it was unreliable and broke down on the trail or race track ?? - NO

The Production 380HO was 47.6hp @ 7150rpm.
Targeted at European Sno-cross racing it needed to be somewhat reliable for race track conditions.
That's likely why it was not given 50+ hp (Reliability)
And why it wasn't offered to the largest markets in Canada and the USA lower 48 for trail use. (Warranty)

Since this is about flying, the highest known "flying reliable HP" 377/447 is the 46.3hp R&D piped 447UL
R&D Piped Aircooled motors - Assumed reliable.
447- 437cc @ 46.3HP = 9.4cc/hp
277- 268cc @ 30.5hp = 8.8cc/hp
503- 497cc @ 62.3hp = 8cc/hp

Would still like to see a Rotax air-cooled UL motor modified for 7cc/hp @ 6500
Then tested for 5 minutes @ 100% followed by 2 hours @75% with a prop. (Repeated a few times)
Swinging a prop, a 6500rpm motor will still be Turning about 5900rpm at 75% power. (Formula below)

47E1C7D7-B0B7-41BB-8597-A399AA7C3CB1.jpeg
 
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PPCFlyer

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Joined
Jun 30, 2021
Messages
2
===============

RAVE Valves don't make you more hp, they move the Toque Power Band down for good midrange power till they open up, which can mean a better GPH use. Like comparing a 670 with RAVE vs the 582UL Non-RAVE at the same say 65hp setting means about 1.0gph better with the 670. The RAVE Valves don't even open up till around 6100+rpm, I think, which you're only turning at 6500rpm for 2-3 minutes for takeoff.
I was reffering to the fact that it likely uses 583 RAVE valve cylinders, which are ported differently and make more power than a 582. Not that it was because they have RAVE valves...
 

Armilite

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Messages
3,613
Location
AMES, IA USA
I was reffering to the fact that it likely uses 583 RAVE valve cylinders, which are ported differently and make more power than a 582. Not that it was because they have RAVE valves...
==============

As I said, RAVE Valves don't make you more hp, they give you more low-down Torque and usually better GPH! Avg is 1.0 gph. The Skidoo 580/582 were None Rave, the 583 had RAVE. The 617/618UL had Rave, and the 670 had RAVE. So Yes, they are using 583 RAVE Cylinders, but you don't have to unless you want a better GPH use. Did Rotax Rick Dyno both a 582UL and a 583 with his New Exhaust, I don't know. That would be a good question to ask him.
 

Armilite

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Joined
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Messages
3,613
Location
AMES, IA USA
"If you could buy a 380HO that makes 57hp, would you Buy a 440F, 503F, 470LC for more Money?"

Would I buy a 57hp 38HO it if it was unreliable and broke down on the trail or race track ?? - NO

The Production 380HO was 47.6hp @ 7150rpm. <--- 2004 Skidoo Race Manual says both 380F 9.6cr & 380HO 11.2cr rated at 7000rpm! Standard 380F is listed at 36hp, and the 380HO 48hp Stock.
Targeted at European Sno-cross racing it needed to be somewhat reliable for race track conditions.
That's likely why it was not given 50+ hp (Reliability)
And why it wasn't offered to the largest markets in Canada and the USA lower 48 for trail use. (Warranty)

Since this is about flying, the highest known "flying reliable HP" 377/447 is the 46.3hp R&D piped 447UL
R&D Piped Aircooled motors - Assumed reliable.
447- 437cc @ 46.3HP = 9.4cc/hp
277- 268cc @ 30.5hp = 8.8cc/hp
503- 497cc @ 62.3hp = 8cc/hp <--- Stock 503UL was 49.6hp + 25.6% (Mild) = 62.3hp! When Designing a Tuned Pipe you can do the 496.9cc/7cc= 70.9hp or use the Max 40% Rule for Aircraft use. 49.6hp + 40% = 69.44hp. Racers will go Higher than 40% and turn them higher rpm. The fellow on Youtube that Races a 277F turns it 9200rpm using 14.5cr. 70.9hp - 69.4hp = 1.5hp difference. -->

Would still like to see a Rotax air-cooled UL motor modified for 7cc/hp @ 6500
Then tested for 5 minutes @ 100% followed by 2 hours @75% with a prop. (Repeated a few times)
Swinging a prop, a 6500rpm motor will still be Turning about 5900rpm at 75% power. (Formula below)

View attachment 113792
========================

You know guys like you who have probably never built a 2 Stroke for plane use, or built a Tuned Pipe for one or do you even have any 2 stroke on a Plane, you seem to have a lot of opinions, but No Facts. You have no problem with a 248cc Polini turning 8000rpm making 36hp on planes, but a Rotax turning 6500rpm for a few minutes making 52-53hp is going to fall apart.

Also, it's 75% Power, not 75% rpm! Are these 75% Power Settings Max Continuous Power, NO! It's more for getting the best GPH use!

670 [email protected] = 92 x 75% = 69hp
618UL [email protected] = 73.4 x 75% = 55.1hp
582UL [email protected] = 65 x 75% = 48.75hp
462UL [email protected] = 52 x 75% = 39.0hp
503UL [email protected] = 50 x 75% = 37.5hp
447UL [email protected] = 40 x 75% = 30.0hp
377UL [email protected] = 35 x 75% = 26.3hp
277UL [email protected] = 28 x 75% = 21.0hp
277UL [email protected] = 26 x 75% = 19.5hp

With a mild R&D Aero Tuned Pipe: Using the 7cc Rule to make 1hp is for 6500rpm, using 11.5cr, and using the Proper Size Carb! Using your +/- 1.0cr = 1hp which was from a 4 Stroke Chart, but Hey I understand these Numbers are all Theoretical Ball Park.

277UL
[email protected] 268.8cc/7cc= [email protected]
503UL
[email protected] 496.9cc/7cc= [email protected]
670
[email protected] 669.2cc/7cc = [email protected]

Simonini Victor 1 Super
, 54hp, is about the most perfect Production Engine. Using 9.5cr, 36mm Carb, 6500rpm and 400.5cc/7cc= 57.2 - 2hp for the low 9.5cr = 55.2hp! Now we know for a FACT the 380HO 368.4cc made [email protected] from the Dyno Sheet and was making [email protected] Variance from 7cc Rule 1.2hp! Now, does it use the Proper Size Carb? Victor 1 Super 400.5cc, 36mm, vs the 277UL, 268.8cc, uses a 36mm Carb? My 1972 292 TNT Single came with a 38mm Carb rated [email protected] using 10.5cr with a Can Muffler.

Kawasaki 440 (68mm x 60mm) 435.9cc vs Rotaxs 447UL (67.5mm x 61mm) 436.7cc.
Kawasaki Stock Tuned Pipe - 63hp at 6750rpms, made 61hp@6500rpm! Kawaski 440 435.9cc/61hp = 7.1cc and they have been used on Planes. They also use a lower CR than the suggested 11.5cr, either 9.5cr or 9.6cr. Kawasaki 440 is 435.9cc/7cc = 62.2hp a 1.2hp difference from Stock Tuned Pipe and the 7cc Rule! Rotax's 447UL is 436.7cc/7cc = 62.3hp! So I suppose you want to argue about .1hp!

To my knowledge, R&D Aero never made a Tuned Pipe for the 377UL/380F or the 380HO which wasn't sold in the Continental USA, or Canada, only in Alaska. We don't know who made the 380HO aftermarket Tuned Pipe, but it did make [email protected] as the 7cc Rule says it should.

I like how you assume an Engine is unreliable in your opinion, yet you have never used one, or built one, or used any of these Engine Coatings!

As the Engine & Tuned Pipe Builder, YOU, decide what hp you want to make. Most all Part 103 & Most Small Kitplanes All have an MTOW that falls between 450lbs and 660lbs. Which 660lbs requires 40.1hp using the Simple Power to Weight Ratio of 1kw for 10kg Rule, if you want it to Fly Well. The 377UL/380F with some minor tweaking, a CR Bump, some Cylinder & Case Porting, using Dual 34mm Carbs or a 38mm, and use a better less restrictive Muffler, the 377UL/380F could probably make that 40.1hp or more even without a Tuned Pipe.

Cylinder and Case Porting you can Gain 10-15% more power.
Going from a 36mm to a 38mm can Gain you 10% more power.
A CR Bump from 9.6 to 11.6 = 2hp.

Just a Standard 377UL/380F 35hp +15% = 40.25hp Porting.
35hp + 10% = 38.5hp Carb Change Single 36mm to a 38mm. 38mm is as Big as the Stock 277, 377, 447, 503 Intakes go without Machining and Welding.

Per Aaens Carb Book same Aaen of Tuned Pipe Fame, the Mikuni Flat Side Carb is as close to EFI you can get. A New Mikuni Flat Side 38mm on eBay $135.
 

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n3puppy

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Jun 25, 2019
Messages
257
========================
Also, it's 75% Power, not 75% rpm! Are these 75% Power Settings Max Continuous Power, NO! It's more for getting the best GPH use!
Correct 75% Power does not equal 75% RPM when swinging a prop.

Unfortunately Posts #8 and #9 of this thread are incorrect saying 75%power=75% rpm.
That may be misleading to anyone that does not understand the equation for [email protected] when using a prop.

My experience with building and piping snowmobile engines for SCCA D-sports road racing taught me that snowmobile engines behave differently in below zero winter races than on 75 degree summer days. Especially the custom engines that were made from free-air Kohlers.
Aaen went with the better suited water cooled route with his V-4 200hp 850cc road race engines.

R&D Aero obviously could have made a 447 pipe that put out more than 15% over stock.
But they didn't!


Doesn't seem there are other test numbers out there.
Like what were cylinder head and exhaust temps?
Without those numbers no way to know why they stopped at 46hp.
Was it Heat?
No way to know since they are out of business.

The premise that the 7cc/hp rule always gives reliable piston ported air cooled engines for aircraft use has been out there for almost 5 years from what I can tell.
Why are there are no reports of one being built/tested/flown?
Whether a person modifies themselves, or pays someone to do it -
Test data is needed to prove modified engines are OK for flight

BTW - the 2004 race manual does not list either 380F engine. The 2005 race book lists the standard 11.2cr MXZ Fan 380 only. Also listed in 2005 Standard sled spec book.

B8DA2754-8C75-4AB7-AE7F-1DB4AA4B2EA7.jpeg
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