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440CC Honda clone , anyone using any of the big singles for Ultra light?

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Protech Racing

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I would like to use 2 of these Honda clones. Duromax 440 18 HP. Modded up a bit with compression, cam, roller rockers, billit rod, etc. Looks like they should make 30 ish HP at 5000RPM.
The FWF weight might be 55# each or less. That would give a pretty good power/weight ratio.
Looking for redrives now.
 

Vigilant1

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Member "addicted2climbing" was thinking about using this engine, here's a link to one of his posts. A search under "Duromax" and "440" turned up some other posts.
It is certainly possible to make a 440cc air cooled 4-stroke engine produce 30HP. It won't do it for long.
 
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Protech Racing

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Lookd at that thread. He's trying to EFI the engine. I use Microsquirt on most of my race cars. I also take out the sensor inputs to only the Map sensor after the car is tuned. This reduces the failure points.
The Big block 400cc engines have plenty of race parts available to turn over 8000RPM/45HP or more. I would think that using the roller rockers, cam, and billit rod should run a long time at 5000/ 35HP. The airboat guys dont rant about them blowing up.
I was looking for some one that has run one. Not a bunch of , your gunna die . Thanks. MM
 

Armilite

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A 460 Single Upgraded made 37.37hp@5000rpm. 5000rpm x 75% = 3750rpm! These run 3600rpm all day long. Suppose to be 1000 hr Industrial Engines if maintained right. The 460 Dyno Sheets gives the Basic Spec's, 34mm carb, 40mm/32mm valves, 307 Cam. Other Typical upgrades is a K&N Type Air Filter, Tuned Header Exhaust, Billet Rod & Flywheel, Hi-Rev kit. If Engines are built to the same Spec's, the 460 is basically 37hp, a 440 is 36hp, a 420 is 35hp.
 

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pictsidhe

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Lookd at that thread. He's trying to EFI the engine. I use Microsquirt on most of my race cars. I also take out the sensor inputs to only the Map sensor after the car is tuned. This reduces the failure points.
The Big block 400cc engines have plenty of race parts available to turn over 8000RPM/45HP or more. I would think that using the roller rockers, cam, and billit rod should run a long time at 5000/ 35HP. The airboat guys dont rant about them blowing up.
I was looking for some one that has run one. Not a bunch of , your gunna die . Thanks. MM
Despite numerous people being interested these engines, I've not found a single report of anyone strapping one to a test stand and running it at high power for longer than a quick dyno pull...
Valley engineering came up with an industrial conversion that is both well tested and flying. They rate their 990cc engine at 32hp continuous. You may want to consider how likely it is that an untested engine of half the size would get close to that.

If you want to test one, please go ahead, somebody needs to! Make sure you tell us lot the results so we have actual data instead of theory to go on.
 

Armilite

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Despite numerous people being interested these engines, I've not found a single report of anyone strapping one to a test stand and running it at high power for longer than a quick dyno pull...
Valley engineering came up with an industrial conversion that is both well tested and flying. They rate their 990cc engine at 32hp continuous. You may want to consider how likely it is that an untested engine of half the size would get close to that.

If you want to test one, please go ahead, somebody needs to! Make sure you tell us lot the results so we have actual data instead of theory to go on.
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Many people already have an Engine on their plane, as I do a 503UL, plus I got probably 12+ other Rotaxs in my Shop, also a JLO, and a Suzuki. Valley Engineering is out of Business and they never really did many upgrades to them. Each Brand can have different Governor Settings, some are set at 3800rpm, some are 4000rpm. Many Brands offer a Hi-Rev kit for 5000rpm. The Stock Cast Iron Flywheels are only good to 5500rpm. These are Industrial Engines designed to run Stationary at 3600rpm all day long. For Takeoff at 5000-5500rpm for 2-3 min than flown at 75% Power as most Certified Engines are. 5000rpm x 75% = 3750rpm, 5500rpm x 75% = 4125rpm. IF, you do all the Engine Coatings, and add a Good Oil Cooler you could turn them a little Higher. Valley Engineering used a V Twin 993 40hp x 75% = 30hp. So, yes 32hp continuous is in line with No Cooling Mods. I got a chance to pick up a 627cc V Twin cheap, so I may have one to play with soon. I have never seen a Power Graph of the bigger 993 V Twin Engines, this 627cc Small Block V Twin is 23hp@3600rpm. 627cc/12.4cc = 50.5hp at 5000rpm if built to the same Specs as the 460 Single.
 

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Protech Racing

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The 460 clone has been run on a lot of stuff. Sleds, air boats etc. The smaller 212 (15HP) is on a couple of Lazairs
Looks like take off power at 5500 and cruise at 4200 should be usable. IMHO. The only issue I had is the splash oiler . But racing karts for years with the same,never tossed a rod or had an oil related failure.

I am building the EZ flyer with the Baby Hirth 30HP and the 460 clone should almost interchange weight and power wise ,and even RPM range is close . If I use the same drive and prop I will have a good reference for actual torque .

I build and race 1800 cc VW and a 1600 cc Toyota, limiited specs to 12/1 compression and 425 lift cam. The V W makes about 139 WHP , or 38HP per 440cc@ 6200rpm
The Toy has twin Webers and make the about same power @ 7000.
 
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Armilite

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The 460 clone has been run on a lot of stuff. Sleds, air boats etc. The smaller 212 (15HP) is on a couple of Lazairs
Looks like take off power at 5500 and cruise at 4200 should be usable. IMHO. The only issue I had is the splash oiler . But racing karts for years with the same,never tossed a rod or had an oil related failure.

I am building the EZ flyer with the Baby Hirth 30HP and the 460 clone should almost interchange weight and power wise ,and even RPM range is close . If I use the same drive and prop I will have a good reference for actual torque .

I build and race 1800 cc VW and a 1600 cc Toyota, limiited specs to 12/1 compression and 425 lift cam. The V W makes about 139 WHP , or 38HP per 440cc@ 6200rpm
The Toy has twin Webers and make the about same power @ 7000.
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Yes, these Honda/Clones are pretty reliable in Racing. Most of the guys I talked to use Mobil 1 Oil. Adding a better Oil Cooler and doing the Engine Coatings can Help. Most of the Singles don't have an Oil Cooler that I have seen, only the Vegas 625 does. A Windage Tray may help and maybe an Add on Cooler could Help lower Temps.
 

Protech Racing

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Cant use a windage tray. The splash system uses the back end of the rod to slap oil around the engine. Adding some sort of reservoir may be usefull if it shows to have failures.
 

pictsidhe

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Aircraft need continuously rated engines. Hopped up engine power figures are rarely tested for even 1 minute. Race aircraft have had numerous hopped up engines. The TBO reliably suffers attrociously. A 440 is based on a 13ish HP engine. More than doubling the thermal load needs more than a few stronger parts, or something will give.
 

Protech Racing

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Of course you upgrade the marginal parts. Springs, rod, cam exhaust . As long as you operate inside of the parts parameters, things will last. Cruise at 4000 is done with stock parts. If you look around .
 

pictsidhe

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What about the cooling? Industrial engines don't have the excess cooling capacity that water cooled engines do. They have a barely adequate set of fins. More than doubling the heat those fins are expected to dissipate is somewhat optimistic. You can crank up to airflow, but then the cooling power becomes huge.
 

Protech Racing

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True. Heat dissipation is always a consideration when changing running parameters.
 
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Valy

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I've been playing around with the industrial engine idea a lot.
The engine can be modified, you can add cooling and can produce more power than spec. Longevity will be shorter, no doubt here.
The biggest issue is the very thin crankshaft that's in the 1.25" range max. Driving the prop from the crankshaft might work better.
Other things to mind:
- Pay attention to the thrust bearing direction!
- if you use a speed reductor, mind the side loading on the crankshaft. Most engines don't have bearings!
- Add some rod bearings.
- use a flat torque camshaft
- add an oil filter
Don't even dream of 1000h TBO. Maybe 100h is realistic due to bad lubrication.
 
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TiPi

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These are Industrial Engines designed to run Stationary at 3600rpm all day long. For Takeoff at 5000-5500rpm for 2-3 min than flown at 75% Power as most Certified Engines are. 5000rpm x 75% = 3750rpm, 5500rpm x 75% = 4125rpm.
error in assumptions!!! the rpm where the prop absorbs 75% POWER is about 90% of the max power rpm, not 75%. The engine output is governed by the propeller rule, and that is exponential, not linear. Look at any aircraft engine with a fixed pitch prop and the 75% power is at roughly 90% of max rpm.
 

Armilite

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Cant use a windage tray. The splash system uses the back end of the rod to slap oil around the engine. Adding some sort of reservoir may be usefull if it shows to have failures.
Correct, that's Why they put a Slot in the Tray! Most Industrial equipment that uses them doesn't move. Go-karts go around a Flat Track where the Oil Sloshes to one side going around a curve. Off-Road karts are going up and down hills around Banked Curves, Airplanes Angle up, on takeoff, Angle down on Decent, Bank in Turns. So a Smart Racer or Pilot uses a Windage Tray.
 

Armilite

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Cant use a windage tray. The splash system uses the back end of the rod to slap oil around the engine. Adding some sort of reservoir may be usefull if it shows to have failures.
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The GX200 to GX270 Series are Small Block Engines on Singles, the GX390+ are Big Block Engines that they just change the Bore & Stroke. Since the Lazair uses (2) Engines, the GX200, 212, Engines with a few Mods can make 15+hp each, equals 30+hp. Since it has a low MTOW of 450 lbs = 204.1166 kg / 10 kg = 20.41166 kw needed = 27.37249 (27hp / 2 = 13.5hp ea) needed! Remember it flew originally on (2) 5.5hp Engines, but marginally. With a Redrive you can use much better props. Those 185UL's were very detuned Engines. 184cc/7cc = 26.2hp@6500rpm with a Good Tuned Pipe. Probably about 18hp@6500rpm with a Good Muffler, Higher CR, and better Carb.
 
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