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2SI (Cuyuna) engine spark issue

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billyvray

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I have an old 2SI engine - the 460-F35. Basically it's a Cuyuna with a little more bore and CDI.
I'm having an issue with the ignition. The old Phelon units are crapped out. The only known supplier in the world has even sent me a set of new units to try out - little different shape but have made sufficient volts in testing. The bench check good also.

I cannot get a spark.

I've removed the kill switch, and tried starting with and without the ground wire attached. I am using a spark plug test light that I know works. I have also removed the plug to just look for a spark. The spark plugs are new.

There is not much to this system and I'm usually pretty handy, but I am missing something. I've been through the manual and can't find where I have it wrong.

I appreciate any suggestions.

Bill
 

Armilite

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I have an old 2SI engine - the 460-F35. Basically it's a Cuyuna with a little more bore and CDI.
I'm having an issue with the ignition. The old Phelon units are crapped out. The only known supplier in the world has even sent me a set of new units to try out - little different shape but have made sufficient volts in testing. The bench check good also.

I cannot get a spark.

I've removed the kill switch, and tried starting with and without the ground wire attached. I am using a spark plug test light that I know works. I have also removed the plug to just look for a spark. The spark plugs are new.

There is not much to this system and I'm usually pretty handy, but I am missing something. I've been through the manual and can't find where I have it wrong.

I appreciate any suggestions.

Bill
===========================================================

Bill, do you have some photo's of the Old CDI Ignition? Does your Flywheel use 4 Magnets or more? Is your Stator putting out Voltage?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8MmrXsEpjQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt-GZlV9v8g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzz2NZiw3fk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_7FD_ZhKSg

Look on this web site at the photo's below which Ignition do you have Nippon, or later Kokosan? If they used the same 4 Magnet Flywheel, you could use about any of the Skidoo Nippon Stuff used on the 277, 377, 447, 503. They used the Horse Type looking Stator. Look on Youtube on How to test a Stator.
http://www.zdenterprises.net/2055054.html

1st Photo. Ignition components common to most Cuyuna & 2si air cooled engines. Small black coil pictured with no ignition wires is used on point ignition engines. Tan colored coil is used on early CDI ignition engines with Nippon Denso ignitions. Black coil with wires is late model CDI supplied by Kokosan.

2nd Photo. Pictured are ignition and charge components for the 690L-70 engine. Ignition module in lower RH corner is for the 460F-35 engine.

3rd Photo. Skidoo/Rotax Nippon CDI Type Stator.
 

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Dana

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Remember, Cuyuna engines, at least the older ones, have an ignition switch that must be closed to run, unlike most other small engines where closing the switch stops the engine.
 

billyvray

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Messages
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image.jpgThanks for the reply.
I'm actually working with ZDE for this particular application. For some reason the 460-F35 version had a Phelon cdi that was made to order.....so none left anywhere.
I've got the 4 magnet flywheel.
I've tried both with and without having the kill switch connected for that very reason. The manual for this one shows a standard style (closed to kill), but I am not getting anything either way. The new modules test good and ZDE generated voltage on the bench, but didn't have an engine to test on...

Bill




Remember, Cuyuna engines, at least the older ones, have an ignition switch that must be closed to run, unlike most other small engines where closing the switch stops the engine.
 
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billyvray

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Messages
806
Location
Newnan, GA
So far I've gone back and double-checked everything, put in new plugs, and re-gapped everything.


I get no spark and cannot figure out why...

I hate to but am considering the possibility that I may need to replace the engine...one that has support or at least a broader knowledge base.

Bill
 

Dana

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Have you tried the Cuyuna engines Yahoo group?
 

billyvray

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Messages
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Newnan, GA
No, Dana, I have not, but I surely will!

The new ignition I was trying is just too different in shape to work. I was able to read that it is making voltage, but it's just not enough. The shape of the coils is made to fit a larger radius flywheel, and the spacing is just off too much.

That said I will continue looking for another coil but I don't see the flywheel radius mentioned in any specs. The search continues....

Bill
 

TFF

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Are you tying to adapt one of the stand alone coil packs? Is the magnet in the flywheel big enough to generate the power?
 

billyvray

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It had a Phelon cdi setup originally. No longer made.
This is an attempt to replace it. I believe this unit was used on a Tecumseh engine, and is still available at NAPA.
The magnets ran the original unit fine.
 

pictsidhe

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Magnet pitch is also very important. You could machine the coil pack to the flywheel diameter. You'll need to etch off burrs afterwards with FeCl3 and varnish or the eddy currents may diminish the spark. Probably easier to hunt down the correct flywheel for your coil packs.
 

Armilite

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#1 Do you have the Flywheel Off? If so, can you post a photo of the Magnet side?

#2 Can You Measure the ID of the Flywheel, Magnet across to the other Magnet?

These Engines once used Nippon Desno CDI (That used 4 Magnet Flywheels), same as used by Skidoo/Rotax 277F, 377F, 440F, 503F, Engines. Photo #3, I posted earlier.

#3 Does the Stator your trying to use, look like the one in photo #2? If so, that is a Charging only Stator, and usually, the Charging Stator Flywheel use's multiple 5-10 Magnets.

Nippon Desno - Horse Shoe CDI Stator SPECIFICATIONS!
Dimensions:
Interior Diameter: 40 mm
Diameter: 110 mm
Thickness : 22 mm
Length of wires stator to plug: 200 mm
 

pictsidhe

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Just thought of something else. If the magnet polarity is wrong, you're urinating into a hurricane. 'Scuse the French... If it sparks when spun backwards but not forwards, start looking for plan B.
 

billyvray

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In the second picture above mine originally used the cdi labeled 1897C. It has a dual pair of magnets in the flywheel, and that's it. No other charging bits. The wiring diagram I attached above is it for the engine.
I have not measured the flywheel and magnets but will try to today or tomorrow attempt to compare with something on the market.
The unit I was trialing will make some voltage but not enough to spark. The center pole is closer and the outer pole are set for a different radius. If the center pole was longer one might be able to machine it to fit, but it just isn't workable.

More to come. Thanks, guys, I appreciate the advice and suggestions.

Bill
 

Armilite

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Joined
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Messages
3,372
Location
AMES, IA USA
In the second picture above mine originally used the cdi labeled 1897C. It has a dual pair of magnets in the flywheel, and that's it. No other charging bits. The wiring diagram I attached above is it for the engine.
I have not measured the flywheel and magnets but will try to today or tomorrow attempt to compare with something on the market.
The unit I was trialing will make some voltage but not enough to spark. The center pole is closer and the outer pole are set for a different radius. If the center pole was longer one might be able to machine it to fit, but it just isn't workable.

More to come. Thanks, guys, I appreciate the advice and suggestions.

Bill
======================================================

Bill, does your Stator look like the one in Photo 2 with (12) Poles or (3) Poles like in photo 3? Notice, in Photo 2 the Flywheel Magnets are (6), not (4) like you said you had.

Photo 1, shows both a Points setup, probably Bosch, and the Older Style Nippon Denso CDI. Both Bosch Points Ignition and Nippon Denso CDI used (4) Magnet Flywheels what you say you have. Photo 3 is the Newer Style Nippon Denso CDI.
 

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