# 21st century Volksplane?

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#### rv7charlie

##### Well-Known Member
Hi Cy,

Sorry to be so late in posting; just had a chance to look at the Aeromarine site. As a quick sanity check, I noticed that one of the pics labels a 40KW alternator, attached to a 40KW engine. One has to wonder what we're supposed to use to fly the plane.....

FWIW, there are several ongoing threads here about very similar setups, using Chinese ATV engines, and Yamaha snow machine engines, including a 60 HP V-twin. The Chinese engines are available for around $2K, and there are belt drives available for under$1K.

Charlie

#### Lifted1

##### Well-Known Member
its called the legal eagle. but i would like to see more engine development. it would be neat to see individuals who are involved in the automotive/motorcycle servicing industry help to develop something along the lines of the "javelina" 1/2 vw with harley twin cam top ends. should easily be able to develop the amount of torque needed to swing a large prop at low rev and possibly gain some reliability.

the airframes are no longer the concern. its getting the affordable engine that seems to stall a lot of projects.

#### BlueRidge

##### Active Member
Germany built 600 Klemm L25s in the 1930s. Tandem open cockpit design, low cantilever wing that also folded for storage.

They flew on 40 hp and were apparently popular. Pops VW replaces the small radial and you’re good.

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#### cluttonfred

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
The early Klemm designs are a great example of what can be done with low power, light weight, and clean (for the time) design. The L25 could carry 13 gallons of fuel and still manage almost 400 lb useful load, very impressive as a dual machine for day flying or as a solo cross country machine. They were not, however, easy or fast or cheap to build.

#### BBerson

##### Light Plane Philosopher
HBA Supporter
The Salmson AD-9 on the Klemm was low hp only because of 2000rpm. The almost 3000cc engine was rather large and could therefor turn a big prop. British Salmson AD.9 - Wikipedia

#### BlueRidge

##### Active Member
The Klemm designs accomplished a lot on low horse power. But I take your point Fred. I’m reading this thread backwards and found Victor Bravo’s quote at #2716:

... focusing on achieving a safe and entry level 3 axis conventional layout HBA with LESS time, LESS materials, LESS fabrication, LESS machine work, LESS parts, LESS jig-building, LESS operating cost, LESS hangar rental, etc.

#### BlueRidge

##### Active Member
most of the german built Klemms had 25hp and at the end of their run 40hp.

The British built Klemm Swallows had much larger engines ... up to 90hp.

The germans made remarkable long distance flights on 25hp versions.

#### cluttonfred

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Michel Barry's MB02 Souricette is a great example of a modern take on the Klemm approach, basically a wood-foam-and-fabric open-cockpit motorglider with a small two-stroke engine. His explored the idea further with his later open-cockpit tandem two-seat Souris Bi (plans not released), enclosed single-seat Mini Bulle and enclosed single-seat Souris Bulle designs, but I think the Sourcette is most appealing in the context of this thread. Sadly, M. Barry does not sell plans to the USA because of liability concerns, but I think a similar plane with a little bit larger cockpit and payload and somewhat lower aspect ratio designed around a modern paramotor two-stroke could have broad appeal.

#### pwood66889

##### Well-Known Member
Thanks for the 3-view, Matt. Is that measure in meters?

#### karmarepair

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Michel Barry's MB02 Souricette is a great example of a modern take on the Klemm approach, basically a wood-foam-and-fabric open-cockpit motorglider with a small two-stroke engine. <snipped - RRY>

View attachment 105558
View attachment 105559
Reminds me of a Long Longster. It's tempting to gin up a variant in my preferred tube and gusset construction, for use with a direct drive V-Twin conversion.

Are the pilots FEET under the engine, as in the RV-5?

Some specs:

Engine: JPX 425, 15 hp
Wing span: 9 m [29" 6"]
Wing area: 10.1 sq.m [109 ft^2]
MAUW: 200 kg [441 #]
Empty weight: 95 kg [209#]
Fuel capacity: 20 lt [5.2 gal]
Max speed: 140 kph [87mph]
Cruise speed: 110 kph [68 mph]
Minimum speed: 40 kph [25 mph]
Climb rate: 2.5 m/s [492 fpm]

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#### Sockmonkey

##### Well-Known Member
Is it just me or does the wing look to be mounted just a little farther aft than it should be, balance-wise?

#### cluttonfred

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Yes, rough 3-view (not my art) is in meters so 9 m wingspan. Original Souricette engine was small opposed twin mounted to firewall ahead of pilot’s feet, later examples with larger and heavier engines required cut back firewall and engine above pilot’s feet for balance. Pilot position accounts for critical bulkhead and fittings and aileron controls behind pilot’s shoulders, hence the need for a light engine and attention to forward CG. It’s a good arrangement for light two-stroke engines, not heavy four-stroke ones, Polini would be perfect.

#### rotax618

##### Well-Known Member
Maybe it would be possible to sweep the wing forward a little to compensate for a heavier engine and give more room for the pilot? Would be better to have two struts to handle the torsion.

#### erkki67

##### Well-Known Member
And both are powered by low hp vw derivatives

#### cluttonfred

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
I thing the Achilles heel of the Souris Bi was visibility...the rear seat occupant couldn’t see much forward and downward.

#### Tiger Tim

##### Well-Known Member
I thing the Achilles heel of the Souris Bi was visibility...the rear seat occupant couldn’t see much forward and downward.
I wonder if it could have been made a low wing without too much fuss. That would pretty well make it a modern Klemm...

#### cluttonfred

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Anything is possible, but the single-strut shoulder-wing arrangement does help with structural weight. That’s clearly why Barry want to a high wing with the Souris Bulle tandem two-seater, though I think a side-by-side shoulder-wing arrangement would be my preference, basically a minimalist open-cockpit Cygnet.

I wonder if it could have been made a low wing without too much fuss. That would pretty well make it a modern Klemm...

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#### Speedboat100

##### Banned
I thing the Achilles heel of the Souris Bi was visibility...the rear seat occupant couldn’t see much forward and downward.

Can the pilot ?

#### Tiger Tim

##### Well-Known Member
Anything is possible, but the single-strut shoulder-wing arrangement does help with structural weight. That’s clearly why Barry want to a high wing with the Souris Bulle tandem two-seater
While rare, strut-braced low-wings do exist. The strut would probably have to be a little heavier to resist buckling but the rest of the structure in that airframe has to be pretty close to what you’d need to move the wing down.