2 stroke direct injection engines conversions or ready available ones for aircraft?

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TFF

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Re: 2 stroke direct injection engines conversions or ready available ones for aircraf

The Valdez hot rod classes use nitrous. Got to have some HP to do 30' takeoff runs. The FW Ta152 had nitrous available for high altitude operation.
 

pictsidhe

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Re: 2 stroke direct injection engines conversions or ready available ones for aircraf

The TA152 had nitrous ans MW50. 15 minutes of nitrous. Must have been a huge tank.
 

nerobro

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Re: 2 stroke direct injection engines conversions or ready available ones for aircraf

NOS is for Drag Racing for a Short Burst 3-10 Seconds use, not for Continious use on any Engine!
It's used for much longer durations during hill climbs and such. The big problem you'll run into is tank chilling.
 

Doggzilla

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Re: 2 stroke direct injection engines conversions or ready available ones for aircraf

The TA152 had nitrous ans MW50. 15 minutes of nitrous. Must have been a huge tank.
No nitrous for MW50. It was a mixture of water to cool the intake charge and methanol for antifreeze, which also stopped detonation.

This allows the turbo to be turned up well beyond the point it would usually have started having detonation and other issues.

Basically its a way to increase boost.
 

pictsidhe

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Re: 2 stroke direct injection engines conversions or ready available ones for aircraf

Ta152 had both. They could be used simultaneously. Usually though, MW50 was used down low, nitrous up high.
 

Doggzilla

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Re: 2 stroke direct injection engines conversions or ready available ones for aircraf

Ta152 had both. They could be used simultaneously. Usually though, MW50 was used down low, nitrous up high.
My bad, you are correct. It was called the GM-1, a separate system from the MW50.
 

Marc W

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Re: 2 stroke direct injection engines conversions or ready available ones for aircraf

The Germans used nitrous to make up for poor supercharger design. Rolls-Royce was the world leader in gear driven superchargers during WW11 with their two stage, two speed designs. Merlins didn't need no steenking nitrous!
 

dino

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Re: 2 stroke direct injection engines conversions or ready available ones for aircraf

Not mentioned is that etec engines have much lower specific fuel consumption than conventional 2 strokes with SFC comparable to modern 4T engines.
 

sotaro

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Re: 2 stroke direct injection engines conversions or ready available ones for aircraf

The Arctic Cat C-TEC 2 6000 (600cc) and 8000 (800cc) both have provision 4 cases. They are 2 stroke parallel twin cylinder liquid cooled. The injection system is "dual stage" as in at low rpm it is direct injected and at high rpm the injector stays on and injects into the crankcase also. There is a slot in the piston that allows the injector to continue to spray fuel and oil into the crankcase. They are about 120 hp and 160 hp respectively at 7000-8000 rpm. The electronic fuel injection system is low pressure, 58 psi. The 600cc engine came out in 2014 and the 800cc this model year.

http://www.arcticinsider.com/Article/Everything-You-Wanted-to-know-about-the-Arctic-Cat-C-TEC2-8000-Engine
 

sotaro

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Re: 2 stroke direct injection engines conversions or ready available ones for aircraf

Cheapracer, do you think CVT are adequate for aviation? I like the way Ski Doo is oiling the big end bearings and I assume the main bearings as well. The sealed bearings didn't seem to work out that well. I know that 2 stroke scooters often use sealed main bearings. Do you hear much about their failure rate in Asia?
 

Armilite

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Re: 2 stroke direct injection engines conversions or ready available ones for aircraf

The Arctic Cat C-TEC 2 6000 (600cc) and 8000 (800cc) both have provision 4 cases. They are 2 strokes parallel twin cylinder liquid cooled. The injection system is "dual stage" as in at low rpm it is direct injected and at high rpm the injector stays on and injects into the crankcase also. There is a slot in the piston that allows the injector to continue to spray fuel and oil into the crankcase. They are about 120 hp and 160 hp respectively at 7000-8000 rpm. The electronic fuel injection system is low pressure, 58 psi. The 600cc engine came out in 2014 and the 800cc this model year.

http://www.arcticinsider.com/Article/Everything-You-Wanted-to-know-about-the-Arctic-Cat-C-TEC2-8000-Engine
==================================================================

Don't confuse eTec Technolgy which is for better Emissions, not making more HP or even making them more Reliable! Skidoo/Rotax have had Crank Bearing issues on both the Old designs and the New Designs that use a Sealed Bearing today. They tried using Bigger Bearings, but that didn't work. Average Bearing Failures being around 4500 miles. If Avg Trail Speed was 35mph, 4500/35 = 126.8hrs. None of these eTec's have been run on an Airplane in Continious use for Hours. IF, they had made them with Greaseable Inserts, that would have Helped. Or used one of the New Hybrid Crank Bearings, that use Steel Races with Ceramic Balls. Most 2 Strokes have been run since the lates 70's at 50:1 Oil, but you can run the Full Synthetics at 100:1 today and your Emissions will be less also. EFI would Help the older Engines have a better GPH use and maybe make a little more HP.

For those Arctic Cat Engines to survive in Airplane use, they would have to be Detuned to 6500rpms also. With a good Tuned Pipe that 600cc becomes 85hp, and the 800cc becomes 114hp at 6500rpms.

Does anyone make a Billet Case for these Arctic Cat 600/800 Engines? There's a reason Rotax went from Pro4 to Pro8. I know there's a Polaris based Billet Twin Case, and I have seen a Skidoo Billet Quad Case made a long time ago. There is a RMZ-550F(Skidoo) Pro8 made for Sleds in Russia, not Sold here in the USA/Canada.

550F Pro8 Engine made in Russia. 96,000 rub = $1,369.39.
http://russneg.ru/Dvigatel-RMZ-550-AVIA-2-karb--s-protochkoy-pod-ustanovku-reduktora-ROTAX---sovm--smazka-zazhiganie-Ducati--S40500550R_111t.html

503 Pro8 Engine made in Russia, 79,000 rub = $1,126.26.
http://russneg.ru/Dvigatel-RMZ---500-2-karb--razd--smazka-Ducati-S40500500-06-50-l-s-_106t.html

250F Pro8 22hp with a Muffler Single made in Russia, 51,500 rub = $734.00.
http://russneg.ru/Dvigatel-RMZ---250-TIKSI-1-karb--1-tsil--Dukati-K90500250-22l-s-_109t.html

They make some other Skidoo/Rotax Type Engines, you have to look close, two different Brands of 503/503, some use different PTO's. From my understanding, they only Sell to Businesses. To ship an Engine is less than $200.
 
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jbiplane

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Re: 2 stroke direct injection engines conversions or ready available ones for aircraf

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503 Pro8 Engine made in Russia, 79,000 rub = $1,126.26.
http://russneg.ru/Dvigatel-RMZ---500-2-karb--razd--smazka-Ducati-S40500500-06-50-l-s-_106t.html
[/COLOR][/B]
My small company (7 employed) make fuel injection for RMZ 550 engines. 2 Variants:
2 throttle bodies 34mm
one throttle body 46mm
We install as well belt drives and fiberglass or carbon propellers.
 

Armilite

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Re: 2 stroke direct injection engines conversions or ready available ones for aircraf

My small company (7 employed) make fuel injection for RMZ 550 engines. 2 Variants:
2 throttle bodies 34mm
one throttle body 46mm
We install as well belt drives and fiberglass or carbon propellers.
=========================================================

Got a Youtube Video yet of the EFI Install on any Rotax's and Running it? Any Dyno Data, GPH, and any HP Increase? A Tuned Pipe for a 503UL would be nice, probably the most popular Engine used. R&D's 503UL Tuned Pipe made [email protected] 496cc/7cc = 70.8hp is possibble at 6500rpms! The 550F - 553cc/7cc = 79hp is possible! The Stock Skidoo 2004 550F using 9.6cr with 34mm Carbs Dynoed [email protected] with a Sled Tuned Pipe. Raise the 9.6cr to 11.6cr = 4hp. Better to maybe use 36mm+ Carbs like All Rotax UL motors use.

R&D RD-1 503UL Tuned Pipe.
http://www.rotaxservices.com/dyno.html#7

Are you close to this Factory that makes these RMZ Motors? Can you Buy these motors and parts, like that 250 Case? Can you Buy the 250 Case Drilled and Tapped for Provision 8? The Holes they Drill look offset, not PRO8.
 

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Armilite

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Re: 2 stroke direct injection engines conversions or ready available ones for aircraf

My small company (7 employed) make fuel injection for RMZ 550 engines. 2 Variants:
2 throttle bodies 34mm
one throttle body 46mm
We install as well belt drives and fiberglass or carbon propellers.
34mm Carb = 76.9 [email protected] inch x2 = 153.8cfm

36mm Carb = 86.2 [email protected] inch x2 = 172.4cfm

38mm Carb = 96.0 [email protected] inch x2 = 192,ocfm

A 44mm Carb = 128.7 [email protected] inch, and that's as high as my chart goes, so a Single 46mm Throttle Body would be around 134.5cfm! You have to remember a 2 Stroke Gulps AIR, so it's really getting less cfm from the Carb, probably 20% - 30%. Your 46mm say 134.5cfm - 30% = 94.15cfm, 134.5cfm - 20% = 107.6cfm. Your Power Band should go past your Max 6500rpm by at least 150-200rpm before it starts to drop off. Cylinder & Case Porting can Help!

A 550F(553cc) at 90% efficient and 6500rpm makes 114cfm. At 100% efficient and 6500rpm makes 127cfm.

A 550F making [email protected] with the Sled Tuned Pipe comes in at 77% efficient making 105cfm. So I bet your 46mm is maybe marginal for a 550F.

IF, your 550F Engine is Carbed right with either a Muffler or a Tuned Pipe, your Power Band on your Dyno Print should go from 2000rpm to 6500rpm+ or for a Sled 7000rpm+ in a straight line.

Here is a 2004 Skidoo 380HO(377/377UL) making [email protected] that uses 11.2cr vs the Standard 377/380 9.6cr with a better Tuned Pipe than the Stock Skidoo Tuned Pipe. Notice 368cc/7cc = 52.6hp about what it makes at 6500rpm! Not a 100% Perfect Power Band but real close.
 

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jbiplane

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Re: 2 stroke direct injection engines conversions or ready available ones for aircraf

================================================== =======
Got a Youtube Video yet of the EFI Install on any Rotax's and Running it?

Are you close to this Factory that makes these RMZ Motors? Can you Buy these motors and parts, like that 250 Case? Can you Buy the 250 Case Drilled and Tapped for Provision 8? The Holes they Drill look offset, not PRO8.
25th of September we will got next order to install EFI on RMZ 500 engines. It will be first 500 engines with our EFI.
We planned to use one 46 or 49mm throttle bodies on them. If you think 46mm a bit small can install 49 mm or bigger.

We have an experience with reedported 550cc and got 64 hp from RMZ 550 engines at 6150 rpm using two 35mm throttle bodies.

RMZ engines - we use many parts of them like reed valves, air fans, carbs for our 294 and 350cc boxer EFI
[video=youtube;uNt8ZCv2Pq8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNt8ZCv2Pq8[/video]

This 350 cc engine use 38mm throttle body and produce 110 kg static trust with 1350mm propeller.

RMZ is not our mainstream. Just 1...2 per month. There are 10+ "car garage" level small shops which adopt this engines for aircraft use.
More peoples reworking RMZ ashobby.

We own 10+ CNC machines, electronic production Dpt, compositeparts production, test equipment... Can design and build anything.

38mm Carb = 96.0 [email protected] inch x2 = 192,ocfm - can you give me originsor math behind this formula?
5 inch ??? What is it - intake length or???
 
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