2 stroke diesel

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akwrencher

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cessna now has a 182 with a diesel, same hp as gas version, about 47 percent less fuel at cruise. Of course, you have to buy a brand new plane...... still cool. think they will be on the market in 2013....
 

Dan Thomas

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cessna now has a 182 with a diesel, same hp as gas version, about 47 percent less fuel at cruise. Of course, you have to buy a brand new plane...... still cool. think they will be on the market in 2013....
That engine has been installed in a bunch of 182Qs already, under STC. Lots of problems with the early versions.

It's a four-stroke, and the conversion is $100,000 or more.

Boy, this is an old thread.

Dan
 

akwrencher

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Figures. Just read a small article in Flying Mag, or something, about them. That's all I know. Do you know anything about the Deltahawk v4 two strokes? Are they reliable?
 

Dan Thomas

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Figures. Just read a small article in Flying Mag, or something, about them. That's all I know. Do you know anything about the Deltahawk v4 two strokes? Are they reliable?
Only a prototype exists. They have never failed in flight;)

Dan
 

akwrencher

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Ha! Good one:) Too Bad, they sure look nice in the pics. Like so many others that didn't make it..............
 

batesjoe

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This thread has been around for a while. Obviously, it is a topic that keeps people engaged in the thought. For one, I would love to see a good diesel hit that market. Like the Zoche, most have been in "development" for years with no end in sight. There is an outfit in Greece called Pattakon that has a Junkers-type engine that is impressive if they ever get it off the tinker toy bench and into serious development. One major difference with their engine is that it only has one crankshaft, but still has 2 pistons for one cylinder.

http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatOP.htm

If they actually got their act together, I would be right up there at the front of the line for a shot at an 80 or so hp 2-stroke turbo-supercharged engine weighing in at around 75 lbs that burns JetA or Diesel.
 

tilopa

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These guys have been at it for the past 5 years: EcoMotors

They have been developing a 2-stroke opposed-piston opposed-cylinder diesel engine. I have been following them for the past couple of years and movement seems pretty slow despite the fact they have millions in backing from Bill Gates, and others, and have a contract with the us army. They claim a 1:1 power to weight, hp/lbs.
 

Lendo

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Lee, It could be a low compression Diesel using a new generation ceramic glow plug. I sent off an enquiry!
George ( down under)
 

cheapracer

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. One major difference with their engine is that it only has one crankshaft, but still has 2 pistons for one cylinder.

http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatOP.htm
...and 4 conrods, a long span of unsupported cranshaft and 2 huge masses of piston assemblies.

Man has some interesting stuff but most of it is not mass-producable. On the other hand, some is.

Expect him to be along soon, I think his website has link reference software.

If they actually got their act together, I would be right up there at the front of the line for a shot at an 80 or so hp 2-stroke turbo-supercharged engine weighing in at around 75 lbs that burns JetA or Diesel.
A good friend of mine has his act together, I'll chat to him later today and see if I can mention anything and I'll actually mention to him the potential of the aircraft diesel engine market.

I can tell you one thing, his modifications to a current diesel saw the idle speed go from 800 to 1250 rpm without touching/increasing air or fuel, ie; a direct efficiency increase.
 

PTAirco

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I have talked with Mr Pattakon a few times about his ideas and he seems a very knowledgeable and practical fellow. His desmodromic valves, for example, have been running in his car for years with great results. (Until somebody stole the car...) His opposed Diesel engines are also not just pie-in-the-sky nonsense, they are based on practical ideas that have been proven decades ago, just packaged in interesting ways. The latest crosshead-type is something that is has been used, in principle, in locomotives and ships for a century. The stuff works.

The OPRE engine would make a great LSA engine; the geometry means that it can run at high rpm, and using an intermediate gear (necessary to couple the two short cranks) means you have a built in reduction drive. No outside scavenging pump needed either.

I spend way too much time reading about alternative engine technology and concepts and usually end up rolling my eyes at some new Rube Goldberg contraption promising to change the world. Mr Pattakon is nothing like that. He has gotten a lot of unwarranted criticism in other forums and has been called a charlatan and a fraud and worse. (Usually by people whose knowledge about engines comes from watching NASCAR races.) He is neither - he is using his own resources to do these experiments and doesn't do this to milk some government grant system.
 
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Marc Bourget

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Something to keep in mind about diesel engines in aircraft. Listened to the engineer of the Cessna installation at OSH. They went to multiple cylinders to reduce the combustion pulse. Current Tech in propellers is inadequate to accept large combustion pulses. Their approach was multiple cylinders (8, IIRC), dividing the pulses, achieving lower amplitude. Maybe something Pattakon is addressing with the integral crank/reduction gear (haven't looked at a cutaway, etc.)

mjb
 

cheapracer

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. They went to multiple cylinders to reduce the combustion pulse.
That's why opposed piston is a viable option, ie; equal opposing forces cancel each other out as well as splitting the heavy loads over 2 sets of crank, rod and piston.

Dair is one such setup Diesel Air Limited but they haven't done much with it.


Current Tech in propellers is inadequate to accept large combustion pulses.


Junkers and other diesels have been around for a long time and the larger Lycomings must give a hell of a belt with their cylinder size.

There's an interesting radial diesels in a park just near me, used in tanks and this Russian/Chinese helicopter..




 

akwrencher

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Cool pix. Hope this thread stays alive. Even if there are still lots of problems to work out, I really think diesels, in some form, are in our future for economical GA flight. BTW, anyone heard any updates on teh Deltahawk? is it dead yet, or making progress?
 

captarmour

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I think almost all aircraft engines can be converted to spark ignition diesel. Current tech causes a reduction in power compared to petrol...maybe that changes soon. At least for places with limited avgas that is a solution.
 

akwrencher

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That could very well be true, but it isn't the diesel fuel itself that gives a diesel it's improved eficiency. they run much higher compression ratios. It would seem to me that if you simply made a gas engine run on diesel, it wouldn't give you that much benefit. And if you ramped up the compression on one of those, then you have the same problems regular diesels do, that is higher weight per hp.
 

PTAirco

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Junkers and other diesels have been around for a long time and the larger Lycomings must give a hell of a belt with their cylinder size.

There's an interesting radial diesels in a park just near me, used in tanks and this Russian/Chinese helicopter..


OK, can you crate me up a half dozen of those radials and send them over? They are just asking to have a big flying boat built around them!

I do happen to know where there are a couple of Guiberson diesel radials too, but I'm keeping that under my hat. Regarding the Cessna concerns about the violent power impulses of Diesels - well, Guiberson had that figured out more than 70 years ago and drove their props through a rubber coupling.
 

Synergy

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Cool pix. Hope this thread stays alive. Even if there are still lots of problems to work out, I really think diesels, in some form, are in our future for economical GA flight. BTW, anyone heard any updates on teh Deltahawk? is it dead yet, or making progress?
I have long been privy to inside information regarding DeltaHawk, the hows and the whys, and the update is that for the first time since I began working with them, the careful words and tone I (appreciatively) associate with Doug's outstanding engineering and abundant corporate caution have been displaced by something that sounds like total confidence that their product is at long last ready. They'll need time and cash to see it through, and at this juncture, business is brutal. They are nothing if not tough and resilient, however, and I can see this one being brought to success if all the bad guys are kept at bay. My money is on DeltaHawk. It's one smooth, continuously overlapping powerstroke with four V-arranged firings per revolution. Totally unlike a Lyco, which have a 30 degree backlash driven by prop and flywheel.
 

captarmour

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Synergy,
That's very good news. Lets hope that while they wait they can build a few so we can see how good they really are.

arkwrencher,
The benefit is that they could be tuned to run on jet fuel and even on bio diesel. They may also use less fuel than when run on gas.
 

cheapracer

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. My money is on DeltaHawk. .
Literally or is it a gratuitous devlopment engine?

Actually Captarmour, you will be very interested in this one that I beleive has great potential alas never seemed to have gone anywhere depsite that it's been around a long time now ...

STEPPED PISTON ENGINE OPERATING PRINCIPLE

Sometimes it's money but more often than not it's stubbiness of the inventor, ie; "My way or the highway".
 
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