2.0 L VW TDI Diesel Conversion Comments

Discussion in 'Volkswagen' started by jedi, Sep 21, 2019.

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  1. Sep 21, 2019 #1

    jedi

    jedi

    jedi

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    I have developed an interest in the VW TDI diesel engines as an automotive engine conversion for experimental aircraft. I have done minimal research at this time but can see a future for thousands of recalled engines converted for aircraft use.

    Has anyone looked into this or have detailed knowledge of the engine?

    The 2.0 L engine generally has 100 to 140 hp with iron block and aluminum heads and max torque between 1,700 and 2,500 rpm and max power at 4,000 rpm

    Horsepower (SAE net) 140@4,000
    Torque 236 lb.-ft. (320 Nm)@1,700-2,500 rpm

    This is one of the engines that was involved in the VW Diesel Gate program with roughly 500,000 cars involved.

    I am looking for weights but those numbers will not be firm as configurations vary and a weight reduction program would be expected.
     
  2. Sep 21, 2019 #2

    wsimpso1

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    I would not count on higher power in an airplane, so 140 hp. How much does it weigh? The usual bench mark is engine ready to turn the prop, all accessories, cooling systems, cowling - 2 pounds per hp. You will need a radiator, PSRU, redundant high pressure pumps, an ECU, engine mount, and cowling.
     
  3. Sep 21, 2019 #3

    pictsidhe

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    Good engines. I'd trust one at rated power in an aircraft, though I'd rather run at 90%. Do not be tempted to uprate them past cheat mode. I believe that they are heavier than the latest BMW alloy block diesels. I don't have any good weights and numbers are hard to find, but diesels are always significantly heavier than similar sized spark engines. I've changed numerous of each. The engines are not being recalled for exchange. The recall is a software patch to remove the cheat mode.
     
  4. Sep 22, 2019 #4

    GeeZee

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    Not sure if it’s the same engine but the TDI in a beetle my wife had years ago had a variable vane turbo instead of a traditional wastegate. The variable vanes would get sooted up and it would end up locked in low boost. Still I thought it had promise as a replacement for a model A in a Piet. I was thinking direct drive with an outboard bearing with prop extension ( like the Corvair 5th bearing).
     
  5. Sep 22, 2019 #5

    pictsidhe

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    236ftlb at 2500 is 112hp. Not too shabby. I have grappled with ~400lb 2litre-ish diesels, I think the VWs are lighter, though I've never had to manhandle one. I can just about guarantee that they do weigh more than, say, an O-235
     
  6. Sep 22, 2019 #6

    Hot Wings

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    You might be surprised. I've never weighed a 2.0 VW diesel long block but the old 1600cc versions weren't all that much heavier than an 8 valve SI - and those long blocks weighed 14* pounds LESS than a 1600cc air-cooled long block - dry.

    * It's been a few years. The numbers 8 and 14 are stuck in my head. But the bug motor was more, on the same scale the same day.
     
  7. Sep 22, 2019 #7

    mullacharjak

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    Surprisingly no one is thinking of alternate engines for the pietenpol.Guess that is due to availability of model A and continental engines.In certain parts of the world these engines are not available while there is a reasonable choice of modern auto engines both diesel and gasoline.In my area vw engines are extinct. There are japanese engines of all sorts.There is a toyota 2.0L engine 3Zr fe I4 petrol which I think would be suitable for a piet Direct drive in place of the
    model A.It produces 120 ft lb torque at 2000 rpm and the torque curve is almost flat. Your opinions would be appreciated.
     
  8. Sep 22, 2019 #8

    pictsidhe

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    The ZR could be retuned for a little more torque. Modern car engines tend to have heavy cylinder heads with 4 valves and variable timing. They need that to get decent low speed economy as well as good high speed power. The ZR uses hydraulic cam phasing that we don't need. With direct drive being about 1/2 the RPM that these engines develop maximum torque, disabling half the valves might help! The ZZ engines had an oil consumption issue that I think was fixed for the ZR. There is a way to reduce the ZZ oil consumption. Inline 4s have secondary balance issues and will vibrate compared to flat fours and sixes, unless they have balance shafts, which the ZRs do not.

    I found a figure of 97kg for a 2ZR, the 3ZR will be close.

    Suzuki make some particularly light V6s that could be worth a look.
     
  9. Sep 22, 2019 #9

    12notes

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    I couldn't find the weight for the exact 2.0L engine you're looking at, but the last generation with weight listed, used until 1999, was well over 400lbs. Although they've probably made some improvements in between, it's still an iron block with aluminum heads and a cast iron exhaust manifold, it's unlikely the newer engine is significantly lighter.

    The forum posts arguing about it seem to have two groups, the people who haven't shipped one who think it's 200-300lbs max, and those that have shipped one and state it's 380-420 lbs.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_Group_diesel_engines
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
  10. Sep 22, 2019 #10

    pictsidhe

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    I've never shipped an engine. I have removed and installed a few, though. I now start aching as soon as I hear the word 'diesel'. I didn't weigh it, but I think even the 1400 NA diesel I swapped was 250+
     
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  11. Sep 22, 2019 #11

    mullacharjak

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    The Toyota 3ZR has more stroke( 97mm) than the 2ZR and the same bore.I think it will come out weighing the same or less than the ModelA in weight.It has only10mm less stroke than the model A.I guess the magic is in the breathing where a 2.0 litre is developing more torque than a 3.3 L.I think it will work same as a Model A in a pietenpol direct drive.
     
  12. Sep 22, 2019 #12

    12notes

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    A common problem is that people grossly under estimate the weight of a turbo and the necessary hardware that goes with it on automotive engines. A good example is the Mazda rotary engines - they're tiny, the short block is very light at 140lbs, most assume the turbo engines have a great power to weight ratio. But the 13B-REW with turbos, intercooler and accessories weighs 390 lbs, while a complete LS-3 V8 with accessories is 420lbs. Remove the accessories, and it's still around 340lbs.

    Automotive turbos and exhaust manifolds are basically large chunks of cast iron. They weigh more that you think, and, when I looked about a decade ago, I couldn't find an automotive turbo engine that was lighter than a naturally aspirated one of similar power. There's a reason the LS swap is popular even with turbocharged cars.
     
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  13. Sep 22, 2019 #13

    Hephaestus

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    I used to run a 1.6/1.9idi turbo vw frankendiesel in an old Toyota pickup. Loved that combo.

    The VWs are rev happy diesels, 4000rpm is normal for them - partly why they worked for that swap.

    Not exactly light though. Pretty sure I remember it was 425lbs. Heavier than the 22RE for sure, as I had to replace front springs to eliminate the sag.
     
  14. Sep 23, 2019 #14

    jedi

    jedi

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    Probably best to replace all exhaust including turbo with a lighter design. Perhaps eliminate the intercooler and lower the compression ratio. How much boost does this engine normally run?
     
  15. Sep 23, 2019 #15

    12notes

    12notes

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    The example engine runs 10psi in stock form. There's a reason cast manifolds are used on most turbo engines, the ones that aren't cast are prone to cracking.
     
  16. Sep 24, 2019 #16

    Himat

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    2 litre VW four-cylinder diesel engine?

    There was a thread here with video of a C172 with one of these engines fitted with a belt drive reduction unit. Exactly what VW 2l TDI engine was not stated, there are a lot of variations and maybe even at least two different engine “families” branded 2l TDI. Have a look at this list:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_Group_diesel_engines

    Rated power stretch all the to 176kW (236hp). Even the Amarok pick up got a 132 kW (177 hp) version of the 2l TDI.
     

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