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Midniteoyl

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water/meth injection increases the compression ratio in the cylinder and the methanol is alcohol, when injected the water raises compression for more power,
No...


The water is turned to steam by the sheer head put off by the manifold which when it is compressed it is less compressible then air, which helps add room/volume to the cylinder, so on the compression stroke it causes a higher cylinder psi, typically about 10-20psi over the stock compression
No.. steam takes room which lessens the amount available for air/fuel. This actually reduces cylinder pressures and thus power. However, the cooling effect tends to offset this, and the other benefits like the ability to add boost, timing, and/or compression more than make up for it.


Alot of piston fighters used water/meth injection to add 500-1,200 horsepower to their engines, they couldn't use it for long though because after your ran the injection you literally had to rebuold the engine. butthat is because they would turn the Merlin for example from a 1,500HP to a 2,200+HP engine.
What? Rebuild the engine after using water/meth? I think you are confusing this with 'war time boost' which was basically overboosting the engine to get the hell outta the way. Had nothing to do with the injection other than it helped the engine live while overboosting. The injection of water/meth in and of itself did not make the power.


Its simple... water/meth injection allows you to run more timing, boost, and/or compression. By itself it does not increase horsepower.
 

pepsi71ocean

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I was not clear before on the process of how W/m works, and i used alot of shortcuts because i was lazy and didn't want to go in great detail, i'll admit that. And so i'm going to explain it in greater detail now.

Yes, the water when injected into the engine will cool down the air molecules which increases the psi of the air, water meth effective raises the compression of the engine. There are four major ways to raise the compression in an engine.

1. Increase air/fuel mixture

normal engines run 12.5:1, leaning our your mix to say 13:1 will decrease HP but help burn your fuel more thoroughly, increasing your fuel air mixture increases in more HP, however you run the risk of melting cylinder and heads doing this, typically this happens once you hit 10:1. Thus this method is not as safe.


2. increase compression.


Lets take a 454cid engine. 4 inch bore and 4.52 inch stroke, we will use 5,000RPM as redline

So then well run for the compression

7:1 compression will yeild 289 HP
8:1 compression will yeild 331 HP
9:1 compression will yeild 372 HP
10:1 compression will yeild 413 HP

Thus we can see that increasing Compression will increase HP.

3. Water/methanol injection

If we added water/meth injection we would see a 15-18% increase in those numbers, why? because it increases HP by increasing the compression through the cooling effects, and the unused steam takes up additional room in the combustion chamber.

Some 6.4L Diesels can see as much as 70HP out of w/m injection alone.

4. NOS injection

NOS injection increases the fuel air mixture by cooling the incoming air(increasing the PSI and this the dynamic compression) and then the NOS being flammable also acts in the same form as methanol.


Hence why i said water/meth injection increases HP.


No.. steam takes room which lessens the amount available for air/fuel. This actually reduces cylinder pressures and thus power. However, the cooling effect tends to offset this, and the other benefits like the ability to add boost, timing, and/or compression more than make up for it.
Water injection was first used on aircraft to great extent on the P-47 Thunderbolt. when coupled correctly water injection could give up to 20 mins of extreme high pressure and HIGH HP. However as the ceiling of the P-47 increased they realized that the water would flash freeze, and so to prevent this they injected methanol as well.

Water injection is a method of charge cooling.

The first benefit of water injection is intake air charge cooling. By cooling the intake air,
more oxygen molecules enter the cylinder through a denser air charge. More oxygen can help to
feed the combustion process resulting in a more complete fuel burn. When the water particles enter the hot cylinder during intake, they absorb heat and convert to stream. The added mass to the combustion process helps to extend the downward force on the piston during the power stroke of the motor. The result is more torque produced by the motor similar to older steam engines.

Methanol is hygroscopic which means it bonds with water, most guys i know run the premix windshield washer fluid because it comes premixed 50:50.

The fact that it is hygroscopic means that the methanol goes into the combustion chamber with the water, the increase compression splits the methanol from the water, and the methanol then vaporizes. Once this happens the methanol and the water then increase the compression of the piston, the methanol then ignites with the fuel allowing for a more thorough burn. In addition to increased dynamic compression this also allows the engine to produce more hp.


While i said steam i should have clarified that water still stays in a steam state which enters the combustion chamber as steam, this does have a compression effect.

Water/meth does increase HP.

What? Rebuild the engine after using water/meth? I think you are confusing this with 'war time boost' which was basically overboosting the engine to get the hell outta the way. Had nothing to do with the injection other than it helped the engine live while overboosting. The injection of water/meth in and of itself did not make the power.
WEP, or War Emergency Power, every engine that had this it was incorporated in different ways. Turbocharged engine like the Allison simply opened the wastegate to increase pressure on the exhaust turbo, thus increasing pressure.

Supercharged engines like the Merlins don't have wastegates, they are fixed to their boost levels. Thus when WEP was kicked in it over boosted the engine by increasing the water/meth mixture and thus increasing the boost beyond safe levels, this could only be effective for maybe 3-5 mins depending.

After the engine was throw into WEP the throttle couldn't be pulled back, it was instead locked until the plane was landing, this was done because the piston rings were normally scorched and had a hard time sealing the combustion chamber, depending on how bad the w/m was could have serious blow by from the piston rings and the valves, this was because the water/meth injection would cause extreme stress into the system. Often time they most the pilot would do is drop to a lower boost setting and limp home afterwards.

W/M was necessary to produce the over boosting effect to generate the WEP HP. it had nothing to do with making it live.

W/M like NOS causes sever engine pressures on the crank, connecting rods, and the wrist pins and just about everything, if you over boost to much you can kill your engine with W/M and or NOS, neither are safe when overboosting beyone the capabilites that your engine can handle.

Here is a link.

War emergency power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WEP in WWII aircraft

Maximum normal power would be limited by a mechanical stop, for instance a wire across the throttle lever slot, but a more forceful push would break the wire allowing extra power. In normal service, the P-51H Mustang was rated at 1,380 hp, but WEP would deliver up to 2,218 hp.[3] The Vought F4U Corsair, not originally equipped for WEP, later boasted a power increase of up to 410 hp (17%) when WEP was engaged.[2] Several methods were used to boost engine power by manufacturers, including water injection and methanol-water injection. Some earlier engines simply allowed the throttle to open wider than normal, allowing more air to flow through the intake. All WEP methods result in greater-than-usual stresses on the engine, and correspond to a reduced engine lifetime. For some airplanes, such as the P-51, use of WEP required the plane to be grounded after landing and the engine torn down and inspected for damage before returning to the air.
My granddad was a Mechanic in WW2, he was in charge of the men to pull out the Merlin engines and rebuild them after WEP was used.


(FYI the Germans used W/M and nitrous injection first to its greatest extent)

The German MW50 system required additional piping, as well as a storage tank, increasing the aircraft's overall weight.[4] Like other boost techniques, MW50 was restricted by capacity and engine temperatures and could only be used for a limited time. The GM 1 nitrous oxide injection system, also used by the Luftwaffe, provided extreme power benefits of 25 to 30 percent but required cooling on the ground and added significant weight.[4]
Its simple... water/meth injection allows you to run more timing, boost, and/or compression. By itself it does not increase horsepower.
You want less timing(closer to tdc), more boost. and remember that boost doesn't effect static compression just dynamic compression...... That is why low compression engines last longer then their high compression brothers.

The W/M doesn't give you more room to add boost, it frees up boost similarly to adding a bigger air intake on a engine to free up locked up HP.

But yes you are right by its self its effect on HP are minimal, but its effects on the whole system is what counts.


Yes water/meth increases HP, it does this just like Nos injection does as well.

The Germans used Nitrous oxide or Nos injection if you want to read on that look up GM1.

N0S was first used by the Germans in WW2 to aid in the use of their DIESEL powered fighters. the N0s allowed for WEP power for aigh altitude aircraft, it was first used in 1940. It only lasted for about 5 mins. I think i copied the German part from the winki site as well.
 
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Midniteoyl

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I dont even know where to begin...

You are not raising the compression with methanol. Period. What you are doing in cooling the air and thus its density. This increases the Volumetric Efficiency. More VE means more torque, which increases the HP. Its simple.

Lets take a 454cid engine. 4 inch bore and 4.52 inch stroke, we will use 5,000RPM as redline

So then well run for the compression

7:1 compression will yeild 289 HP
8:1 compression will yeild 331 HP
9:1 compression will yeild 372 HP
10:1 compression will yeild 413 HP
These numbers are way off, so are meaningless.


Even if you run a 'set boost' with a locked wastegate, DV, or whatever, you are not being boosted by the simple injection of methanol. What you are doing is exactly the same as above, cooling the air/fuel charge, increasing VE. If that injection is ahead of the turbo/charger, then you are cooling the air charge being compressed, thus getting cooler compressed air to the engine, which has the effect of increasing the boost, ie; the compressor is still boosting, say from 10psi to 25psi, but because the air started out cooler, it exits the compressor cooler, has less loss due to heat, and reaches the throttle at a higher PSI than it normally would. (did that make sense?) The same effect can be done after the compressor, and in fact is - its called an intercooler. All this has to do with cooling the inlet air/fuel charge and raising the VE to increase power.

The Merlin needed to be inspected because it was already running on the ragged edge, and the increased power hurt the bearings and rods.

I believe you are really confused about water injection, boost, and VE...
 

PTAirco

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I dont even know where to begin...

You are not raising the compression with methanol. Period. What you are doing in cooling the air and thus its density. This increases the Volumetric Efficiency. More VE means more torque, which increases the HP. Its simple.



These numbers are way off, so are meaningless.


Even if you run a 'set boost' with a locked wastegate, DV, or whatever, you are not being boosted by the simple injection of methanol. What you are doing is exactly the same as above, cooling the air/fuel charge, increasing VE. If that injection is ahead of the turbo/charger, then you are cooling the air charge being compressed, thus getting cooler compressed air to the engine, which has the effect of increasing the boost, ie; the compressor is still boosting, say from 10psi to 25psi, but because the air started out cooler, it exits the compressor cooler, has less loss due to heat, and reaches the throttle at a higher PSI than it normally would. (did that make sense?) The same effect can be done after the compressor, and in fact is - its called an intercooler. All this has to do with cooling the inlet air/fuel charge and raising the VE to increase power.

The Merlin needed to be inspected because it was already running on the ragged edge, and the increased power hurt the bearings and rods.

I believe you are really confused about water injection, boost, and VE...

Yeah, but these things sell so well on e-bay, along with computer cooling fans sold as "electric superchargers"....
 

Midniteoyl

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More...


With naturally aspirated engines using less than 10:1 compression, water/methanol is used often in warm climates to get the intake temps lower. Benefits include: 10-15 HP increases from air density increases and full timing as well as more effective air/fuel ratios, increased gas mileage, and carbon free combustion chambers.

While power gains are typically less in stock compression naturally aspirated vehicles compared to high compression or forced induction engines, benefits can still be realized due to more timing advance, leaner air/fuel ratios, cleaner engine components, lower temperatures, and the use of the methanol in the injection fluid as a secondary fuel source.

• Extra octane. This allows for much more aggressive tuning safely to make more power. Timing can often be advanced 10 or more degrees in the power band. Boost can often be increased 5 or more PSI. Air/fuel ratios of around 12.5:1 can be utilized even in high boost applications.
• Better cooling of the intake air charge. We often cool intake air temperatures 50-150 degrees. This means denser air charge for more efficient power.

If these methods are used, a 20% increase in HP is possible. In naturally aspirated applications, gains of 5-10% are possible.
Snow Performance: Home


The production of more power by a water/meth injected engine is not a by-product of the water/meth mixture alone. You must tune for it to get the most out of it. The evaporative effects of the water/meth mixture, plus the octane boost, allows you to run more advanced timing, and boost, thus increasing power.
Water/Methanol Injection FAQ - NASIOC





Water injection is a method of charge cooling.

The first benefit of water injection is intake air charge cooling. By cooling the intake air,
more oxygen molecules enter the cylinder through a denser air charge. More oxygen can help to
feed the combustion process resulting in a more complete fuel burn. When the water particles enter the hot cylinder during intake, they absorb heat and convert to stream. The added mass to the combustion process helps to extend the downward force on the piston during the power stroke of the motor. The result is more torque produced by the motor similar to older steam engines.

Methanol is hygroscopic which means it bonds with water, most guys i know run the premix windshield washer fluid because it comes premixed 50:50.

The fact that it is hygroscopic means that the methanol goes into the combustion chamber with the water, the increase compression splits the methanol from the water, and the methanol then vaporizes. Once this happens the methanol and the water then increase the compression of the piston, the methanol then ignites with the fuel allowing for a more thorough burn. In addition to increased dynamic compression this also allows the engine to produce more hp.
Now this is mostly correct... it doesn't increase compression, but it does allow an increase in cylinder pressure due to the increased VE which increases torque and thus HP.

Sorry I missed that before.
 

wsimpso1

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Thread drift!

Horsepower is about moving air and fuel and burning it. If an engine is designed and built to run at higher pressures, you can move more air and do it reliably. To move more air, you can make the combustion chamber bigger or you can pressurize the manifold, and you can get even more air in if you cool the air after compressing it. And that is all that ECOTEC engines do. Reliability is largely a matter of making parts beefy enough and out of suitable materials.

The problem with getting big power out of a big block V-8 is that the engine was never designed for long life at 1 hp per cubic inch, nor was the block or crankshaft designed to run at big rpm. Now, folks have found a little room for beefier cranks and beefed up the blocks and heads, have found room in that pattern for bunches more power, but they are still trying to fit 10 pounds into an 8 pound bag...

Ford has introduced EcoBoost engines, which were intended to either maintain big engine performance with better fuel economy or maintain fuel economy but give you a hot rod... They are direct fuel injected and turbocharged. Because of the direct injection, they can run even higher boost without detonation, pre-ignition, etc. Neat stuff. They produced even more power than the ECOTEC engines at 2.0L. They ran huge duration at high power on our dynos, which is more than I could say about old school big blocks and Navistar's recent diesels.

I believe the ECOTEC can do what they say. And it looks like it could be a suitable engine. Once someone is flying them for a while, we will know a lot more about them...

Billski
 

pepsi71ocean

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I dont even know where to begin...

You are not raising the compression with methanol. Period. What you are doing in cooling the air and thus its density. This increases the Volumetric Efficiency. More VE means more torque, which increases the HP. Its simple.
You can increase TQ by using a longer stroke and longer connecting rods. The longer the rods the faster the piston speed the more movement force it has, however it lowers top end RPM. Thus why big displacement engines can't crank the RPM's that the little cousins can.

These numbers are way off, so are meaningless.
That was part of a series, you can increse the HP by increasing the static compression of a engine. Those were taking using a .85(i believe) vE. I can post the mathmatical formulas if you want.


The Merlin needed to be inspected because it was already running on the ragged edge, and the increased power hurt the bearings and rods.
No, the Water injection increased the boost by huge numbers so much that it would cause the engine to work beyond its means, in its stock form a Packard Build RR Merlin V-1650-7 or V1650-9 would last 400 hours before a suggested TBO. however the use of heavily leaded ava gas would require the spark plugs to b changed every other mission or 10 hours bcause the lead would cause fouling.


And example from my notes on the Merlin in hydroplane racing. This is a quote from a guy who i talked to at lenght about the Merlin and its ADI system.

The only reason the Merlin was such a good engine was one...a massive stroke and the 2-stage blower, however the crank is weak and the fork rods are even weaker. To get the engine to stay put without vibrating out of the boat we had to weld counter-weights on the crankshaft to balance out the engine. Around and over 3000 rpm the engine had a definet tendency to vibrate to beat hell.
As I said before induction temp was a big issue as well...we ran a 50/50 mixture of methanol and water to cool the combustion tempreature and that was introduced to the engine with a -7 spray bar at the inlet of the blower and was regulated by how much boost the blower made...controled by a bellows and a tapered needle. It's called the ADI system or anti-detonation injection. When the blower made over a 100 inches you basically had a full bore garden hose of water and methanol drowning the motor, on hot days we went through 30 gallons per heat....5 laps on a 2.5 mile course.
A seperate email

In our application we really put the screws to the engine. We ran em up past 4 grand or till the valves were floating, exceeding 135 inches of manifold pressure was a regular deal, the real killer was induction temperature. Pre-ignition caused all kinds of mayhem including sawing engines in half. The boat racers definitely blew their fair share of engines up to the point were the airplane guys hated us for it.
These guys would rebuild the engines after every race because the engines wouldn't hold their compression, however they made great racing engines right up untilt he days of gas turbines showed up.



Horsepower is about moving air and fuel and burning it. If an engine is designed and built to run at higher pressures, you can move more air and do it reliably. To move more air, you can make the combustion chamber bigger or you can pressurize the manifold, and you can get even more air in if you cool the air after compressing it. And that is all that ECOTEC engines do. Reliability is largely a matter of making parts beefy enough and out of suitable materials.
My understanding is HP gets you altitude and TQ gives you speed, but then again im a boat guy so i may know nothign about aerodynamics.

Well Reliability is a mixture of performance and sustainability. You can have either or but not both.

The problem with getting big power out of a big block V-8 is that the engine was never designed for long life at 1 hp per cubic inch, nor was the block or crankshaft designed to run at big rpm. Now, folks have found a little room for beefier cranks and beefed up the blocks and heads, have found room in that pattern for bunches more power, but they are still trying to fit 10 pounds into an 8 pound bag...
You can get the 1HP:1cid reliabily, the problem is the engine would be very different from what we see now that is the problem.

If you ran low compression pistons(7:1), a longer stroke and a huge rod, then supercharge it you could break it easily.

Ford has introduced EcoBoost engines, which were intended to either maintain big engine performance with better fuel economy or maintain fuel economy but give you a hot rod... They are direct fuel injected and turbocharged. Because of the direct injection, they can run even higher boost without detonation, pre-ignition, etc. Neat stuff. They produced even more power than the ECOTEC engines at 2.0L. They ran huge duration at high power on our dynos, which is more than I could say about old school big blocks and Navistar's recent diesels.
Direct injection can only fix so many issues with boost. But i will keep an eye on this. My engine diesng mirror a similar setup to the EcoBoost.

Well you have to understand Powerchoke diesels are worthless, after 100,000 miles they are worn out and are ready to die, a Cummins will outlast a Navistar any day of the week.:gig:
 

PTAirco

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My understanding is HP gets you altitude and TQ gives you speed,


.:gig:
I'm sorry, but that statement is completely meaningless in any kind of context. It's something you typically hear from engine tuners who really do not understand basic principles and work from hearsay and trial and error and get their technical info from advertisements in hot rod magazines. (Not meaning you personally, of course). We've discussed the relationship of horsepower and torque to death in other threads and if you are working with geared engines, torque can always be matched to your particular requirements, but the bottom line is hp.
 

Midniteoyl

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midniteoyl
I dont even know where to begin...

You are not raising the compression with methanol. Period. What you are doing in cooling the air and thus its density. This increases the Volumetric Efficiency. More VE means more torque, which increases the HP. Its simple.
You can increase TQ by using a longer stroke and longer connecting rods. The longer the rods the faster the piston speed the more movement force it has, however it lowers top end RPM. Thus why big displacement engines can't crank the RPM's that the little cousins can.

What are you answering here? Lost me....


My understanding is HP gets you altitude and TQ gives you speed,
I give up...
 

pepsi71ocean

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What are you answering here? Lost me....
There are other ways of increasing torque. You can increase torque by a lot of things not just VE. Engines like cars can be manipulated to increase their power. The problem is people don't understand today because they are used to modern High compression High RPM engines.

You can't make gas torque monsters using High RPM engines, you will engine up with a unreliable motor, whcih would be useless.



I'm sorry, but that statement is completely meaningless in any kind of context. It's something you typically hear from engine tuners who really do not understand basic principles and work from hearsay and trial and error and get their technical info from advertisements in hot rod magazines. (Not meaning you personally, of course). We've discussed the relationship of horsepower and torque to death in other threads and if you are working with geared engines, torque can always be matched to your particular requirements, but the bottom line is hp.
I did say my understanding, simply because in the boating world Torque allows you to swing a bigger prop, and get up to speed quicker, while HP can keep you there.

But when i was reading into airplane engines i noticed that torque allows you fly faster, when used with a larger proepller at a lower RPM. while the lower the HP the lower the altitude, the higher th HP the higher the altitude.

Am i correct on this? If not then explain where torque falls into the airplane/propeller saga, because that is where the unknown is.

But then again comparing boats to airplanes im not so sure of, understanding motors however i do know, And i don't read those hot rod mags, i never learned that way, i learned through work, and how to tune engines to get what we wanted out of them.

The problem with Hot Rod magizines is they don't explain the theory or the reason behinding doing somethign the correct way. They just say use JE Pistons or elderbroc headers, etic. they don't explain that you need larger oil holes, that you should bluemark and balance the engine, etic...
 

Midniteoyl

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There are other ways of increasing torque. You can increase torque by a lot of things not just VE. Engines like cars can be manipulated to increase their power. The problem is people don't understand today because they are used to modern High compression High RPM engines.

You can't make gas torque monsters using High RPM engines, you will engine up with a unreliable motor, whcih would be useless.
Ok.. but were weren't talking on other ways to increase torque, but rather how water/meth injection can allow you to increase torque.
 

PTAirco

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Yes, thread drift warning applies:

Here is just one thread where we talked about this relationship between HP and torque.

https://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/general-auto-conversion-discussion/5021-about-torque-airscrews.html

Seems lately people get a little uptight about repeating certain topics, so I'll refrain from re-hashing what has been said there, save that the bottom line is : How much hp you have and getting that power to to the prop at an efficient RPM. The bigger and slower the prop, the better. That's all there is to it. With a geared engine, the amount of torque the engine produces in itself does not really matter as long as you gear it down to turn the prop as slowly as practical. Direct drive is a different matter, sure - you're stuck with producing HP at a certain RPM and the more torque your engine can produce at that RPM the better.
 

addaon

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"The bigger and slower the prop, the better." Is this true at all speeds, or predominantly at low speeds? I was under the impression that a smaller prop mattered a lot less at higher speed, and became important in keeping tip speeds safely subsonic.
 

Topaz

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...and became important in keeping tip speeds safely subsonic.
That's the key. "Bigger and slower" is better, right up until the point where the tips go transonic. Forward speed is a component in the prop tip speed, so the diameter to maintain subsonic tips gets smaller as you go faster, for a given RPM.

There were some attempts at fully-supersonic propellers, back in the '60s. I don't know how sucessful they really were, but the airplanes did fly.

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/4/9/6/1326694.jpg
 

Alan Waters

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I am a big fan of the aircooled VW engine. According to the man who knows www.aircooled.net the following engine can produce 250 Hp at 2500 rpm. 88mm stroke, 94 mm bore, fuel injected, turbocharged. The problem is cooling the beast. His words. Now in a rear engine bug cooling is one thing. In a front engine airplane with ducted air to each cyl. and a BIG oil cooler it may be possible. The ecotec is about the same displacement with all the fuel air mixture built in. A turbo or two should give plenty of takeoff power with a reasonable cruise. The turbo heat should be managable using the same ducted air and the proper size radiator should take care of the rest. What do you think? I would like to not use a reducer.
 

PTAirco

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I am a big fan of the aircooled VW engine. According to the man who knows www.aircooled.net the following engine can produce 250 Hp at 2500 rpm. 88mm stroke, 94 mm bore, fuel injected, turbocharged. The problem is cooling the beast. His words. Now in a rear engine bug cooling is one thing. In a front engine airplane with ducted air to each cyl. and a BIG oil cooler it may be possible. The ecotec is about the same displacement with all the fuel air mixture built in. A turbo or two should give plenty of takeoff power with a reasonable cruise. The turbo heat should be managable using the same ducted air and the proper size radiator should take care of the rest. What do you think? I would like to not use a reducer.

I love VWs but 250 hp at 2500 rpm? That is fantasy land.

I know there are VWs on drag strips that regularly blow doors of souped up V8 Chevrolets, but they don't do it with 2500 rpm. Try 6500 and a rebuild after ten minutes running time. Meltdown at 12 minutes....
 

pepsi71ocean

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its easy to figure that all out, but i wouldn't like to run an engine that high, 6,500 is death speed IMO, even if it was for a min or two.

And to Midniteoyl, PTAirco, Topaz sounds just like a boat propeller situation, thanks for the info.
 
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