#### TXFlyGuy

##### Well-Known Member
Yeah, I could get a loan and go buy a P-51. So what. The cost to own one, let's say they go for 2-4 million (see Trade-a-plane). At 65 gph and $10/gal, that is$26,000 in fuel. Maintenance, insurance and hanger are probably about the same. The real cost is the opportunity cost of sinking cash into something that may or may not appreciate. $2 mil at 6% is about 120k. In the end, the gas, even at$10/gal is about 16% of total cost. So someone who can afford a P51 can't do the math?
Another perspective, why are so many clamoring for battery powered cars? Sure, they can afford to buy a V6 powered car, but the gasoline bill is the major consideration. And the doubling of fuel prices since 2020 acts like a tax burden on all of us. Eating into what was discretionary income.

The operating expenses of a P-51 will make a multi-millionaire wince. My friend's insurance premium on his Mustang is in the 6 figure range.

#### Tom DM

##### Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
What is an aerobatic endorsement?

BJC

A dance, and a bloody awful one at that. Was challenged in school into such a thing. Being quite gymnastic and trained at the time: some turning around with a ball and stuff. Couldn't get out of bed the next day.
Of course I could be completely wrong or it could be acrobatic dance.

He is however right about aerobatic endorsement It is a rather dubious authorization, depending from country to country, stating that when you kill yourself performing the flight manoeuvres that killed you, you were allowed so and did not break the Law.
It is needed whenever you want to rent an acro-plane but sometime a paper with some numbers on it (ressembling or being identical to a banknote) also works.

#### challenger_II

##### Well-Known Member
(Obviously, TDM doesn't recognize Humor when he sees it!)

#### PiperCruisin

##### Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Another perspective, why are so many clamoring for battery powered cars? Sure, they can afford to buy a V6 powered car, but the gasoline bill is the major consideration. And the doubling of fuel prices since 2020 acts like a tax burden on all of us. Eating into what was discretionary income.

The operating expenses of a P-51 will make a multi-millionaire wince. My friend's insurance premium on his Mustang is in the 6 figure range.
I'm currently engineering hybrid electric vehicles and I don't have an electric car. I think they are getting better and the potential performance benefits are cool, however, it doesn't make sense to me just yet. The gas price is just something you see all the time so it gets irritating.

Some don't want to do the math or want what they want. I have my own plane, which is dumb. Would have been cheaper to rent or join a club, but wanted it to be mine and the freedom to fly when and where I wanted without the hassle. So yeah, I can be stupid too.

#### challenger_II

##### Well-Known Member
I see it as neither "dumb", nor "stupid". I see it as exercising good judgement.

I cannot afford an airplane. I cannot justify the expense of an airplane. I have one,
at any rate.

#### TXFlyGuy

##### Well-Known Member
I see it as neither "dumb", nor "stupid". I see it as exercising good judgement.

I cannot afford an airplane. I cannot justify the expense of an airplane. I have one,
at any rate.

My wife and I just finished up a very nice road trip, in the Ford Explorer. nearly 1500 miles, round trip, Texas to Florida. It was an easy drive, about 8 hours each way of actual driving time.

It was far less expensive to drive, vs. flying with my friend in his C-310. And way less expensive than buying an airline ticket!

Sure, the trip would be faster in the airplanes. But by driving, we have our own vehicle. Maximum flexibility.

And we saw gasoline prices of $3.98 / gallon, for 87 UL. So...you can never "justify" owning a plane. #### BJC ##### Well-Known Member Supporting Member Of course I could be completely wrong Yup. He is however right about aerobatic endorsement There is no such thing in the USA. It is needed whenever you want to rent an acro-plane I haven't rented an aerobatic aircraft in a long time, but when I did, there was no such requirement. BJC #### challenger_II ##### Well-Known Member My wife and I just finished up a very nice road trip, in the Ford Explorer. nearly 1500 miles, round trip, Texas to Florida. It was an easy drive, about 8 hours each way of actual driving time. It was far less expensive to drive, vs. flying with my friend in his C-310. And way less expensive than buying an airline ticket! Sure, the trip would be faster in the airplanes. But by driving, we have our own vehicle. Maximum flexibility. And we saw gasoline prices of$3.98 / gallon, for 87 UL. So...you can never "justify" owning a plane.
Back when I was working in the Great Lake of Texas (GOM to those from the North), I could drive my Silverado from KSWW to Abbeville, La. in 12 hrs, burning 32 gallons. I did fly my fast-back 150 there in 5.5 hrs, and burned 32 gallons. A few times, I flew a friend's Mooney M20C, took 3 hrs, and burned 32 gallons. With the Pint-and-a-Half, and the Mooney, when crew change day came, I would be sitting at the house well before dark. I'd say that was justification.

#### TXFlyGuy

##### Well-Known Member
Back when I was working in the Great Lake of Texas (GOM to those from the North), I could drive my Silverado from KSWW to Abbeville, La. in 12 hrs, burning 32 gallons. I did fly my fast-back 150 there in 5.5 hrs, and burned 32 gallons. A few times, I flew a friend's Mooney M20C, took 3 hrs, and burned 32 gallons. With the Pint-and-a-Half, and the Mooney, when crew change day came, I would be sitting at the house well before dark. I'd say that was justification.

My wife had a 1st Class Lay Flat Sleeper seat, in the Explorer. That made the trip enjoyable for her. No way your going to do that in any light plane.
Actually, you won't even get that on an airliner, unless you are on a 777 or 787.

#### SpruceForest

##### Well-Known Member
Yup.

There is no such thing in the USA.

I haven't rented an aerobatic aircraft in a long time, but when I did, there was no such requirement.

BJC
Us ex-mil types never had to worry about it while driving for Uncle Sam, but apparently if you want to kill yourself in front of people at low altitude whist doing entertaining stuff with an aircraft, it's def a thing... along with all the other requirements for venue, etc. Ticket...waiver...piece of paper. The point is that a) yes... Tom made a lot of money by avoiding the current 'let's make cringe-worthy pictures that torture the audience and lose big money' trend in filmmaking, then spent a bit of it on some nice aircraft, and b) he's serious enough about the flying thing to the point where - over the past 28 years - he's been able to met insurance and regulatory requirements for stuff like borrowing that L-39, the helo stunt work in one of the previous MI flicks, and that little 'flying off into the sunset' clip for TG2 (if you've ever been involved in film work, the insurance requirements are the tougher nut than keeping the FAA or other regulatory agency out of your face).

On the topic of wealthy people buying stuff and hiring some skilled people to help them operate said things, it's fairly common... you almost never see Robert Kraft suit up when his team's season is on the line. Perhaps the difference re: aviation is that it's a lot of fun, so more of those folks with IDGAFF money get seriously involved.

#### BBJCaptain

##### Member
I had to go to JFK due to EDCT time a couple months ago and the cost of fuel at the FBO was $14.35. Luckily it was a short hop over to EWR and I didn't have to buy any fuel. I just filled up one of the Bosses rides (767-300ER) to take one of the kids to the Monaco Grand Prix from LAX. The upload was 17,500 gals at a cost of$5.53 (yes we get a base customer discount) for the second leg of a long trip to the Med for their 330' Yacht party palace. Total trip fuel was 60,800 gals at a cost of $250,000 then you have to add over fly permits, flight planning, parking, crew hotels + food and catering for a 17 day trip. If you add up the fact that I was on the road 265 days last year with my work ride that's a crazy amount of money to operate one of the 6 planes the owner has. I could retire on just the fixed cost a year for the 767. Filling up my 76 C-177 RGII with 60gals of go juice and heading out for that$300 hamburger doesn't feel so bad.

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