$10 gallon Avgas

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Bigshu

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The difference in the vapor pressure between mogas and 100LL is not that great. As stated, in North Texas we have a boutique fuel market as we burn reformulated gasoline year round. The EPA mandated certain counties to follow this rule, and most other counties voluntarily opted in.

So our 93UL has an RVP of 7.8 or less. I think 100LL is around 5.5. The normal standard set is 9.0 psi for auto gasoline.
Around where I live and worked for the pipeline, 9# was summer gasoline for areas outside the EPA compliance zones. The counties inside the zone went down to 6.8#. Winter gas is up to 15#, with no differences by county. It's quite a bit cooler up here, so we need the much higher RVP in the winter for cold starting. The takeaway is that the low RVP of 100LL isn't terribly relevent, since people with mogas STCs fly in the winter just fine on 15# gas. I wonder what the RVP of UL94 is?
 

Rhino

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A big than you to the EPA. Note that folks from my generation and my parents generation, who grew up burning leaded gasoline in cars, are dropping dead left and right, like flies.
And the EPA killed them? Wow. Talk about government overreach.
 

Dana

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Is boat gas available anywhere near you? It's normally premium gas with no ethanol and no road taxes on it. At least in Canada. And up here premium gas usually has no ethanol in it anyway.
Nope. CT law says all gas, road use or otherwise, must be oxygenated... and since CT also bans MTBE, ethanol is the only other option, so all gas other than agvas has ethanol.
 

Rhino

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Last I checked, Connecticut be an itty bitty place with several other states nearby. But I wouldn't care to travel for mine either, so I get where you're coming from.
 

TFF

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I wouldn’t call it a monopoly; it’s what is left of a dead business model. You might want that service and hate to pay for it, but if Lycoming and Continental died, revenue is insignificant enough that the rest of the world would not care. Between the two 3000 new engines and 3000 overhauls a year their numbers. Out of 150,000 planes that use them in the US. It is a fragile egg that if they did die, the government would have a reason to kill GA. No one wants in on the business. Low volume low profit. Only heartache. They could build five, million dollar sports cars for the super wealthy, and make more money. Why deal with all that work with a startup. If you take out your need or like, they are trinket business that do nothing the general public can see. Not a soda, not an app, not a sports team, not a mattress. Last of the Mohicans.
The only no ethanol gas I see in CT is race gas. That’s $10+ a gallon.
 

Vigilant1

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Nope. CT law says all gas, road use or otherwise, must be oxygenated... and since CT also bans MTBE, ethanol is the only other option, so all gas other than agvas has ethanol.
The only no ethanol gas I see in CT is race gas. That’s $10+ a gallon.
Maybe things didn't work out, but I saw an article a few years ago that at east coast marinas Gulf Marine Fuels is selling fuel with isobutanol as the oxygenating agent (rather than ethanol). Here's one article about it: List of Marinas Selling Isobutanol Fuel Announced. From the piece, compared to fuel with ethanol:

it has greater energy density (30% higher BTU value) and, most important for our boat engines, it does not absorb moisture or undergo phase separation. It also does not corrode or otherwise damage fuel tanks, fuel lines, and engine components
At one time it was available in New London and Cedar Island CT, and many other marinas on the east coast.
 
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Dana

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That's interesting, Cedar Island is in my home town. Wonder what it costs?

But no doubt the corn lobby will something evil about it...
 

BJC

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But no doubt the corn lobby will something evil about it...
Yup, but, for the lobbyists to succeed, a congress critter has to be for sale. And they keep getting reelected ....

Homebuilt airplanes are good.


BJC
 

Rhino

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...It is a fragile egg that if they did die, the government would have a reason to kill GA...
That's the scenario that most frightens me. Eliminate a huge chunk of the pilot pool and there's no longer a big lobby for protecting GA. That means even if GA survives the initial culling, there would be little remaining political opposition to user fees and the like, which would kill off the rest of GA except for the very rich.
 

Vigilant1

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The wealthy folks and prosperous small businesses are the main reason we have the bizjets and expensive GA piston aircraft using the hundreds of small airports (Munis, county, and private) scattered all over the country. Recreational aviation has very little political clout on its own. Truly, the continued existence of the hobby depends on these revenue-generating GA activities else we'd be squashed like a bug.
 

Rhino

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The AOPA and EAA are the most powerful lobbyists for GA in the US, and they most definitely represent recreational aviation. Even some of the business lobbyists are seeing the importance of GA since they started running out of pilots, though I still hold short of considering them true allies.
 

BJC

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Eliminate a huge chunk of the pilot pool and there's no longer a big lobby for protecting GA.
The AOPA and EAA are the most powerful lobbyists for GA in the US, and they most definitely represent recreational aviation.
That is why I am a member of both organizations; we need their lobbying.


BJC
 

Daleandee

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Recreational aviation has very little political clout on its own. Truly, the continued existence of the hobby depends on these revenue-generating GA activities else we'd be squashed like a bug.
FWIW ... Osh & SnF are places where the clout & power of GA aircraft (whether certified or experimental) can be seen. I was surprised at the turn out at SnF this year but I guess folks were ready to take off the mask and get back to something near normal ...
 

BJC

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FWIW ... Osh & SnF are places where the clout & power of GA aircraft (whether certified or experimental) can be seen. I was surprised at the turn out at SnF this year but I guess folks were ready to take off the mask and get back to something near normal ...
At Sun n Fun, I talked to lots of people from other states. They were happy to be in a place where life is mostly normal, and has been for months.

I’m hoping that Oshkosh will be as open and successful.


BJC
 

TFF

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I learned in 2007 that the RC world had no clout; they thought they did until the big aerospace companies want the airspace. GA if it really came up against any of the big boys would feel the freeze too. It is really fragile out there.
 
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Bigshu

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Nope. CT law says all gas, road use or otherwise, must be oxygenated... and since CT also bans MTBE, ethanol is the only other option, so all gas other than agvas has ethanol.
In Missouri, it's "mandated" but the mandate is tied to a price differential. When the price of ethanol is high, you can use "neat" gasoline. When it's lower, you have to use it up to 10% (maybe 15% in the future).
 

Bigshu

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There is also the issue of people who don’t want corn in their car knowing there is fuel at the airport. Not all airports will sell fuel to people off the street, but mine does right now.

It depends on your market. You can get gasoline without ethanol at lots of places in Missouri, but there's a price differential for "neat" fuels. Still, any place that sells no ethanol gasoline will beat the price of 100LL. And you really roll the dice if you put off road fuel in your car. The fines if you're caught are $$$$.
 

Bigshu

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That's interesting, Cedar Island is in my home town. Wonder what it costs?

But no doubt the corn lobby will something evil about it...
Is the corn lobby that strong in CT? It's strong in the midwest, but even here, the "mandate" is tied to the price of corn (because the corn lobby only wants it in fuel when the price is low?).
 

Bigshu

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Yup, but, for the lobbyists to succeed, a congress critter has to be for sale. And they keep getting reelected ....

Homebuilt airplanes are good.


BJC
Pretty sure all those critters are for sale, only the price varies...
 

Vigilant1

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It is an amazingly interconnected world. The carburetor in my lawnmower needs replacing because Iowa is an early caucus state.
 
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