10/23 Raptor Video

[Dana]

Once again, this thread is starting to take a disproportionate amount of the moderators' time. If it continues it will meet the same fate as the last thread. Keep it to the technical aspects of the project, please.

 

[Marc Zeitlin]

I was thinking non pressurized cockpit shell. The large door design would be useful for bulky cargo. With a new wing, canard, and power plant, wouldn't be a bad design for vacation travel.

You are describing a Velocity XL, which is a proven design and is currently available as a kit.

 

[Speedboat100]

I was thinking non pressurized cockpit shell. The large door design would be useful for bulky cargo. With a new wing, canard, and power plant, wouldn't be a bad design for vacation travel.

Yes they need to simplicate it: http://conf.hardingconsultants.co.nz/workspace/uploads/falconer-john-536305e216ea7.pdf

 

[BBerson]

Is there an average trip distance for private aviation?

 

[Mark Z]

If you need binoculars to see me; I’ve gone too far.

 

[lelievre12]

To get a sense of the price it could be helpful to see the Dark Aero Aircraft

The kit is targeted to be $79K. This would include all airframe parts to the 49% rule but not avionics or engine. It is all vacuum bagged carbon, like the Raptor but has a lot more laser cut flat pieces which are cheaper to make. It is also far far far smaller with a total empty weight of only 750#. Tragically it seems that 4 x Dark Aero aircraft = 1 Raptor.

Can they do it?? Like the Raptor, the Dark Aero is 'vaporware' too. However the Dark Aero team have actually built aircraft before, are qualified aircraft engineers and the progress to date looks like they actually will deliver on the promises. There is also a lot less technical risk here as for example, the UL520IS engine is already proven and the price/weight is known. There is also a larger use of CAD/CAM made components and less hand made stuff so the pricing is believable.

So with the Dark Aero for $130K the aircraft could be home built and for those dollars would come a 275MPH 2 seat machine with 1700sm range. Not quite as 'good' as Raptor but these numbers seem at least believable.

 

[bmcj]

Like the Raptor, the Dark Aero is 'vaporware' too.

I wouldn’t call the Raptor “vaporware”, but I would attribute the term “vaporperformance” to it as it does not look likely to meet its projections.

 

[BBerson]

If the new Raptor team is still staying with pressurization then the most recent competitor was $821,000 here:LX7: A Thoroughly Reworked Lancair IV-P - AVweb
Not sure if any were sold?
So the market price for pressurized could be between $130,000-$821,000

 

[Toobuilder]

Is there an average trip distance for private aviation?

Im sure there is, but does that define overall requirements for the machine - no. My typical driving commute is 40 miles each direction, which is squarely in electric car metrics, but what about when I take the trip across country and need 400 miles between fill ups?

For flying, half of my HOURS are spent solo and fairly close to home. These are the formation, pancake breakfast and just screwing around flights... But the other half of my hours are with the wife in back, loaded down with bags and headed downrange. These are 600 mile legs, but would be further if I had the capability.

The faster and more capable the airplane, the smaller the world gets.

 

[BBerson]

These are 600 mile legs, but would be further if I had the capability.

How much further? And what is the preferred cruise altitude?
Are you interested in pressurized aircraft?

 

[Toobuilder]

A pressurized aircraft has an appeal, yes, but the cost of that capability would have to be weighed against the marginal utility in a trade study. The math would determine the decision.

I intend to build new tanks for the Rocket which will get me my 1000 mile legs. That comes at a cost, but the utility of the occasional long cross country is worth it to me.

 

[BBerson]

but the cost of that capability would have to be weighed against the marginal utility in a trade study. The math would determine the decision.

That's what I am wondering, if anyone does these market studies?
Someone with no pressurized experience putting up a refundable $2000 deposit isn't really a market. It's more like a fan club membership.

 

[Toobuilder]

The potential customer SHOULD own their own requirements, if so, the marginal utility of a capability should be clear to even a high school ECON 101 student. As for the "market study", thats on the back of the supplier. But as we've seen, creative marketing can conjure a market out of thin air - look at the "pet rock"...

 

[BJC]

That's what I am wondering, if anyone does these market studies?

Seems to me that it is nearly impossible to do a market study for a new class of E-AB. Lots of people will be interested, but very few will actually spend the money.

The alternative to a survey is to develop a slick web site with lots of computer generated graphics and bold, overly optimistic, performance claims, with an unrealistic cost projection, and collect deposits from naive prospects.


BJC

 

[BJC]

To get a sense of the price it could be helpful to see the Dark Aero Aircraft

At Oshkosh 2018, they told me that they were “almost ready to fly”, having completed the hard part: building the molds.

I hope that they succeed.


BJC

 

[Kyle Boatright]

...having completed the hard part: building the molds...

BJC

It really hurts when I blow Diet Coke through my nose...

 

[rbarnes]

90% done and 90% to go...

 

[Malish]

this airplane will never fly

 

[Alessandre]

this airplane will never fly

It already flew, not a nice flight, but flew.
There is no power enough, no stability, pretty heavy and no enough engine cooling, he didn't believe in a dynamometer that showed 175hp for his engine and choose to believe in his calcs that project 300hp instead of use that test to fix his engine before the first flight.

 

[lelievre12]

My P210 has aux tip tanks for 120 gallons total fuel. That provides ~8+ hours plus and a ~1000+ nautical mile range. Have I ever flown a 1000 miles non-stop? No.

However what I do do is often fly to remote locations (like Baja MX or John Creek) that have no fuel then return with plenty of reserves. Or land at airports with sky high fuel prices then fly home to fill at my favorite FBO for better $$. And wherever I go I always plan a minimum of 30 gallons (2.5 hours) reserve so the safety factor is huge. Some jets only have 2.5 hours range when they take off!

These capability makes flying fun and relaxed. I'm never stressed about for example, arriving at a remote MX strip being fuel critical. There are hours and hours still in the tank to make an alternate. Or get annoyed with $7/gallon avgas. I can tanker fuel . Or get tense when ATC put you in a hold with 20 in the queue before you can shoot your approach.

So range has perks. Even if one doesn't fly across the country on every trip, I would always pick the longer range capability.