10/23 Raptor Video

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231TC

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As someone else said, maybe someone dropped the dime on him to the FAA and he's trying to get straight on his limitations?
Someone did report him. Wasn't me or anyone here but I saw the report this morning. It was more out of concern for him flying into the mountains, but used the operating limitations as an excuse for the FAA to talk to him. I'm not a fan of tattling to the FAA, especially over paperwork, but this person at least means well. They also tried to get Dan Gryder to stage an intervention before Peter left Georgia, but I'll keep my thoughts on that to myself.

YT pilots get reported all the time for nonsense reasons and the FAA can't take action based on social media alone, but sometimes the FSDO still looks into it. If they did, they'd likely see the obvious violation since the aircraft is 500 miles away from its 50-mile radius.

Speculation here based on 2nd/3rd-hand info, but I believe Peter reached out to the FAA himself after learning of his misunderstanding. I hope so. It's usually easier to sort mistakes out if you call them before they call you.
 

lelievre12

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Velocity eventually rebuffed PMs offer to "improve" their design and he went his own way to show them how clever he was. Now we see the result. The folks at Velocity are smart and did the right thing. They have no worries about Raptor taking any of their market share for years to come. They are as busy as they can stand to be at this time producing kit components and finishing aircraft for customers.
Velocity are also busy trying to find out why two highly qualified pilots managed to crash N13VT, their 'new' Velocity twin. Not to mention N360VT which also crashed at least twice during testing. If folks are predicting doom for PM its worth noting that the 'proper' engineered Velocity has a far worse record to date. Not as 'smart' as we would hope.
 
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Victor Bravo

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Looking at where the problems are. Mostly it's tied to weight and lack of power to get going before the engine overheats something.

It takes off
It flies stable, or as stable as he shows it to be
It flies in figure 8's like the best of them
It lands

The gear extends/retracts fine, the taxi performance seems fine, the controls work fine, it starts up and runs so electrical is fine. The propeller will cycle so the design is valid.
I have to call attention to one small part of this, because earlier in this saga it was clear that there were some significant problems with his control system. Some of it was in the side-stick mounting or mechanism being not strong or rigid enough, and then there was some other in-flight oscillation or "Dutch Roll" that we had seen in the early videos. The control system itself was wonky enough that the flight test crew bailed on the project, IIRC?
 

rv6ejguy

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Velocity are also busy trying to find out why two highly qualified pilots managed to crash N13VT, their 'new' Velocity twin. Not to mention N360VT which also crashed at least twice during testing. If folks are predicting doom for PM its worth noting that the 'proper' engineered Velocity has a far worse record to date. Not as 'smart' as we would hope.
Not sure how you come up with this conclusion on a total flight hour basis?

Looks like the investigation isn't complete on N13VT. Do you have some additional information not in the preliminary report?

On N360VT, looks like pilot error.

Highly qualified pilots crash airplanes all the time...
 

TarDevil

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On N360VT, looks like pilot error
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
The pilot’s improper landing flare, which resulted in a bounced landing. Also causal to the accident were the pilot’s subsequent delayed decision to abort the landing and his improper execution of the aborted landing, which resulted in the airplane exceeding its critical angle-of-attack and experiencing an aerodynamic stall.

Hardly an engineering issue.
 

PPLOnly

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Someone did report him. Wasn't me or anyone here but I saw the report this morning. It was more out of concern for him flying into the mountains, but used the operating limitations as an excuse for the FAA to talk to him. I'm not a fan of tattling to the FAA, especially over paperwork, but this person at least means well. They also tried to get Dan Gryder to stage an intervention before Peter left Georgia, but I'll keep my thoughts on that to myself.

YT pilots get reported all the time for nonsense reasons and the FAA can't take action based on social media alone, but sometimes the FSDO still looks into it. If they did, they'd likely see the obvious violation since the aircraft is 500 miles away from its 50-mile radius.

Speculation here based on 2nd/3rd-hand info, but I believe Peter reached out to the FAA himself after learning of his misunderstanding. I hope so. It's usually easier to sort mistakes out if you call them before they call you.
How do you know this? And I REALLY don't like the idea of someone tattling based on internet info like that. PM maybe knows the performance of his aircraft enough to determine that he can overfly the mountains without issue. No one online has any more info than he does, and it is crazy that they are trying to plan a flight for him through the FAA.
 

Victor Bravo

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That is absolutely true, but many people here also feel an obligation to prevent the loss of an aircraft and pilot by any means necessary when the obvious problems get to a certain point. If the "internet info" shows me drinking a six-pack before flying, over and over again, and then I tell everyone that I'm going to take someone's grandkids for a joy ride in my airplane, the people on this forum would feel obliged to "drop a dime" on me because there is a reasonable chance that I'm about to do something really stupid. Not found guilty, not executed, no firing squad just based on the internet. But certainly have someone come out and see if they smell beer in the airplane before takeoff.
 

BBerson

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The Dutch roll was unlikely because it is gone without modification. The cause was new pilot PIO. (see Marc Zeitlin comments)
As far as I know, the flight crew didn't bail, they were replaced by a local crew.
 

Topaz

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How do you know this? And I REALLY don't like the idea of someone tattling based on internet info like that. PM maybe knows the performance of his aircraft enough to determine that he can overfly the mountains without issue. No one online has any more info than he does, and it is crazy that they are trying to plan a flight for him through the FAA.
I appreciate your sentiment because nobody likes an informer. But PM doesn't get to "know the performance of his aircraft enough" to exceed the operating limitations the FAA has imposed upon him for test flying which is, as I understand it, what was going to happen if he took this trip. Someone blowing off (intentionally or by misunderstanding) their FAA paperwork hurts us all and, since those limitations were imposed by the FAA for a reason, makes it more likely that PM would hurt himself or others in the process.
 

PPLOnly

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I appreciate your sentiment because nobody likes an informer. But PM doesn't get to "know the performance of his aircraft enough" to exceed the operating limitations the FAA has imposed upon him for test flying which is, as I understand it, what was going to happen if he took this trip. Someone blowing off (intentionally or by misunderstanding) their FAA paperwork hurts us all and, since those limitations were imposed by the FAA for a reason, makes it more likely that PM would hurt himself or others in the process.
He’s pretending he’s a manufacturer, that’s like saying the G650 crash hurt our community. If he was E-AB I’d agree.
 

Topaz

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He’s pretending he’s a manufacturer, that’s like saying the G650 crash hurt our community. If he was E-AB I’d agree.
The FAA paperwork doesn't care "what he's pretending to be." You're within your rights not to agree with someone telling the FAA that he's breaking his operating limitations. Others are within their rights to think it was the right thing to do. Although I normally don't like "informers," I happen to be one of the latter in this particular case.
 

Topaz

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I suppose I should explain why I feel differently in this particular case. It's because, with the YouTube postings and publicity which PM has, himself, sought out, it's a very high-profile representative of our entire community, for good or ill. We don't need this to become a very public example of ignoring FAA-imposed limitations and guidance. I'm not saying PM is doing any of this deliberately, because I don't know that, but even inadvertently "blowing off" the operating limitations for the aircraft and taking an extended cross-country is not what we want the public seeing experimental aviation is all about.

So yes, I support whomever told the FAA that PM is about to, or already is, operating this aircraft beyond the operating limitations they imposed.
 

231TC

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How do you know this?
The reporting party showed me what they wrote to the FAA. I don't even know this person well, but I have a gift for getting people to offer up info without directly asking for it. I had heard about the report last week but didn't see it until today.

Like I said, I'm not a fan of tattling to the FAA, but there's some gray area. It wasn't snitching to be a jerk, but out of good intent. I still don't love it, but it's not going to hurt anyone and might prevent some harm. We'll probably never know.

As far as any implications to the Raptor business, that's on the person/business that screwed up, even if it was innocent (I believe it was). If you want to be in the airplane business, know the rules and follow them. Don't just take someone's verbal word about it, even if it's a DAR who should know better.

It's not likely to be a huge obstacle to the business anyway. The FAA, as bureaucratically annoying as it is sometimes, isn't looking to ruin the lives of everybody who makes a mistake in the air. Their goal generally is getting non-compliant operations into compliance, not shut down for good.
 

galapoola

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There is barely enough market for Velocity (full kit and owner assistence), AeroCanard (partial kit), and Cozy MkIV (plans), then new Raptor would try to take some of each...I hope we do not lose Velocity and AeroCanard nor the suppliers of bits and pieces for the Cozy.
I suppose I should have said, "make the illusion of taking a peice of the pie that isn't really that big to begin with". Ha
 

WINGITIS

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It surely is an interesting balancing act....

A person has a dream and drives through to Stage 1 of the dream, he sees what the next steps are and continues to push towards them....

ONE COULD BE FLYING INTO OSHKOSH, surely a milestone when the dream was first initiated.

Another person thinks risks are being taken and they are a bit high, possibly they will lead to a incident.

IT COULD BE WITH A MOUNTAIN.

In general a lot of persons have a general concern for various valid reasons.

NORMALLY AN INTERVENTION WOULD COME FROM CLOSE FRIENDS OR FAMILY.

If a close friend or family member across the project, knowing what the dream is and the issues with the product and environment, would be in a GOOD PLACE TO MAKE THE JUDGEMENT as to an intervention or at least a candid conversation with the Dreamee/Creator.

That is perhaps the bit that is missing or that we have not seen.....

Otherwise it is good to see that the HBA has folks on both sides of the discussion, because the Freedom/Responsibility balance is still in play.

That is not the same in all countries.

K
 
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