10/23 Raptor Video

Homebuilt Aircraft & Kit Plane Forum

Help Support Homebuilt Aircraft & Kit Plane Forum:

dog

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2019
Messages
578
I think that everybody can agree that fully 50% of raptors current performance deficit could be
remedied with a cooling system and turbo upgrade.
Which in light of the overall effort would be a shame not to do,especialy as a good chunk of
the design work for that sits further back in this thread,with RV6guy articulating the counter intuitive parts well.
 

Jsample40

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2020
Messages
55
Location
Western North Carolina
Pretty much I think this Forum has done what it is meant to!

It has provided feedback for Peter(if he reads it) on the good, bad and indifferent from a VERY WIDE range of peoples views and experiences.

You cannot get better than that as input to how your endeavors are going, from either a technical, safety or marketing perspective.

Peoples views here may have indeed helped him in ways we will never know, he may have picked up on lots of ideas and advice that has really been useful and even the criticisms he does not like may have affected him in positive ways, either tempering him or driving him forwards.

The passion on the HBA is always evident, that is why I surmise we keep coming back here.

It is an achievement to build any aircraft and get it up into the air, even more so when you designed it, so he does get a LOT of points for that.

But because flying can be a dangerous game many on here have safety as a core MOTIVATION and that may be where the key items people are worried about come from.

The performance promises were clearly something that came out of incorrect calculations or inputs and that is unfortunate.

But the Lilium and Blackfly dudes have a TON OF FUNDS and are basically proceeding at a somewhat similar pace as Peter is as the years go by.

There may be different outcomes but we all like to follow these projects anyway.

Likely because we probably have all had elements of success and failure in the projects we have done in the past, hence our sometimes passionate inputs...

Many cheers
K
VERY WELL SAID!!! Hats off to you Wingitis.... A most impressive assessment, and sincere acknowledgement of Raptor's/ Peter's actual successes & failures. Objective, as anyone with an ounce of engineering skills/ background would project. And not a trace of "SNARKY" CRAP.
Respectfully,
Jay W. Sample
 

Marc Zeitlin

Exalted Grand Poobah
Joined
Dec 11, 2015
Messages
966
Location
Tehachapi, CA
He has done, one cannot deny his accomplishments, flown a plane with more or less what he said he would fly it with, an Audi V6 Diesel car engine that has in fact (nearly on the second one) flown 40 hrs when no one on here, including every expert, predicted it would not get off the ground and make a circuit safely.
I was with you until the "no one here, including every expert" part. Assuming that I'm at least vaguely included in the "expert" category with respect to canards, I will point you to the innumerable postings in which I was very clear that after I inspected the plane for Elliot and Justin back in 12/19, I stated that it would almost certainly fly, and be flyable, within some small CG range and small operating envelope. And I'm not the only one who stated as much.

What we DID ALL state was that it was impossible for the plane to get anywhere close to its CLAIMED and predicted performance goals, and that flying out of the very small acceptable operating envelope would not be either possible or safe.

I think all of those claims and predictions have been proven true.

Had the Raptor sales pitch been "we are building a plane that can cruise at 125 mph at 3500' AGL then Peter would look like a genius, therefore I say that Peter should merely change his expectation to his reality and he will be spot on.
I gotta say, it's hard to imagine anyone claiming "we're going to spend $3M dollars to create a plane that will be slower and lower than anything else out there with 4 - 5 seats, and it will be unreliable and expensive and completely untested before you get one" being hailed as a genius, but what do I know :).
 

BBerson

Light Plane Philosopher
HBA Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
15,076
Location
Port Townsend WA
The performance numbers on the website were listed as "estimated". Did anyone think it was real numbers?
Yes, he spent a bunch of money. Nothing new about that, probably less than Icon to get to first prototype.
I think the Solar Impulse cost around $170 million and IS slower than anything else out there. How did they get $170 million?
He isn't an aero genius and may not soon create a viable product. But he might have the only wild new thing to fly into Airventure as Burt implored us to do in 2019.
 
Last edited:

Vigilant1

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
6,509
Location
US
Burt did wild new things--they were innovative, well engineered, but took full advantage of what was already known in order to make something better. There's nothing gained or especially noteworthy about repeating past mistakes or blowing off knowledge already bought and paid for by others.

Tenacity and perseverance are important, there's no doubt about that. Maybe those attributes are necessary but not sufficient for breaking new ground in aerospace.
 
Last edited:

mcrae0104

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Log Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2009
Messages
3,935
Location
KBJC
The performance numbers on the website were listed as "estimated". Did anyone think it was real numbers?
The definition of "estimated" can vary wildly, from just a WA guess to fairly accurate calculations. Test flight reveals the designer's definition.

He isn't an aero genius...
You think? ;)

But he might have the only wild new thing to fly into Airventure as Burt implored us to do in 2019.
"Wild" or otherwise, sadly, you might be right, Bill. I loved Burt's 2019 talk. There is a lot of talk about new technology and new configurations but precious little actually coming to life these days. If Peter shows up at OSH, I'll be the first to buy him a beer (or at least order up some coffee from @Mark Z).
 

WINGITIS

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2020
Messages
451
Location
Wellington, New Zealand
I would be very happy with that in my bird......do you think they might sell one? (motor)
THEY STATE THEY WONT BE SELLING THEM(ATTACHED)

The 109 lbs of thrust each was also with the motor/prop on the production wing. The noise is incredible, a 78 MPH wind when stationary.

The test is at 1:12 into this video:

They also imply they may be flying at Oshkosh this year but I THINK NOT!
 

Attachments

Last edited:

WINGITIS

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2020
Messages
451
Location
Wellington, New Zealand
VERY WELL SAID!!! Hats off to you Wingitis.... A most impressive assessment, and sincere acknowledgement of Raptor's/ Peter's actual successes & failures. Objective, as anyone with an ounce of engineering skills/ background would project. And not a trace of "SNARKY" CRAP.
Respectfully,
Jay W. Sample
Thanks Jay

But I can also be as biased as anyone else from time to time...

K
 

Victor Bravo

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Jul 30, 2014
Messages
9,273
Location
KWHP, Los Angeles CA, USA
Jay Sample, maybe you might consider that the people on this forum are the same kind of snarky, holier-than-thou, "expert" pundits who were probably shouting and screaming:

NO, you'll need a bigger rudder on it
NO, make the bulkheads go all the way up to the deck
NO, you need to provide more lifeboats
NO, get the right binoculars for the crowsnest
NO, don't try to set a new record on your first outing

...to a certain shipbuilding firm a long time ago.
 

WINGITIS

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2020
Messages
451
Location
Wellington, New Zealand
It said see the Blackfly at Airventure, but did not say see the Blackfly FLY at Airventure.
The video is two years ago.
I know that but they inferred previously at Oshkosh that it would be flying at a future one!

The video is from two years ago because it was in 2019 that I used that THRUST data, from it, for that spreadsheet(Dated 2019) summary of the JUMP feature.

I have not seen any other thrust tests since then, but they claim 120lbs now on the website, previously it was 130lbs claimed.

You may note on the website they also now have a picture showing enough production wings to make about 28 aircraft, they have stated that 25 will be sold in the near future, maybe at Oshkosh this year orders will begin as well.
 

WINGITIS

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2020
Messages
451
Location
Wellington, New Zealand
Last edited:

cheapracer

Well-Known Member
Log Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Messages
6,340
Location
Australian
VERY WELL SAID!!!
"Motivated reasoning" is what social scientists call the process of deciding what evidence to accept based on the conclusion one prefers.

To maintain positive self-regard, people knowingly discount troubling information that contradicts their own views. Individuals engage in motivated reasoning as a way to avoid or lessen cognitive dissonance (the term for the state of discomfort felt when two or more modes of thought contradict each other), the mental discomfort people experience when confronted by contradictory information, especially on matters that directly relate to their comfort, happiness , and mental health.

In summary: Rather than re-examining a contradiction, it’s much easier to dismiss it.

Someone owes me $1200 for this session.
 

Rik-

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2019
Messages
478
Location
San Rafael, California
I was with you until the "no one here, including every expert" part. Assuming that I'm at least vaguely included in the "expert" category with respect to canards, I will point you to the innumerable postings in which I was very clear that after I inspected the plane for Elliot and Justin back in 12/19, I stated that it would almost certainly fly, and be flyable, within some small CG range and small operating envelope. And I'm not the only one who stated as much.

What we DID ALL state was that it was impossible for the plane to get anywhere close to its CLAIMED and predicted performance goals, and that flying out of the very small acceptable operating envelope would not be either possible or safe.

I think all of those claims and predictions have been proven true.

I gotta say, it's hard to imagine anyone claiming "we're going to spend $3M dollars to create a plane that will be slower and lower than anything else out there with 4 - 5 seats, and it will be unreliable and expensive and completely untested before you get one" being hailed as a genius, but what do I know :).
There's always an exception to the group, however, even you can see that the pendulum doesn't swing both ways on this forum very often. It's getting like the evening news, negativity sells.
 

Victor Bravo

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Jul 30, 2014
Messages
9,273
Location
KWHP, Los Angeles CA, USA
Lol, so that's why I cant watch the news, talk to people, or read this thread too much, Everything is contradictory in the "information" age.
We've advanced through the Stone Age, the Bronze Age, the Industrial Age, and the Information Age... thanks to the internet and other factors, we're now in the Dis-Information Age.
 
Top