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Thread: Cantilever parasol wings?

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    Registered User cluttonfred's Avatar
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    Cantilever parasol wings?

    According to Eric Clutton, FRED's parasol wing is essentially cantilever. The two inverted V "flying wires" are there to brace against the twisting imparted on the wing/cabane fittings when using the ailerons. Then I stumbled across this photo of Fokker V.40, a one-off prototype sport plane based on the WWI D.VIII fighter with just a 35 hp Anzani engine. That got me thinking about applying this Fokker-style cantilever parasol wing and strut arrangement to a small homebuilt. It seems like a great solution for a small single-seater in which the wing could be built dead straight (no dihedral or sweep) and in one piece. What do you all think...pros, cons, cool, goofy?
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    Last edited by cluttonfred; March 11th, 2019 at 02:40 PM.
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    Registered User billyvray's Avatar
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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    I like. Either in conventional construction or composite.

    Here's site with it modeled up already.

    http://mossie3dcad.com/3dmodels.html#fokker_v40
    Bill Rayfield
    Newnan, Ga

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    Registered User cluttonfred's Avatar
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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    Cool models, very doable construction even if you'd have to basically calculate everything from scratch. Here is a little more info, another pic, and a 3-view.

    Fokker V.40
    Developer: Fokker
    Country: Germany
    First flight: 1918
    Type: Light Sport Aircraft

    After the release in late 1918 of the lightweight sports Fokker V.39, Anthony Fokker built another similar, but somewhat smaller plane - the Fokker V. 40 . It was a single high-wing with a parasol-type wing, equipped with a 35-hp three-cylinder Anzani engine.

    After the signing of the truce, Fokker moved with his company to the Netherlands, among other planes he brought back V.40, which was used by the company in 1920

    Modification Fokker V.49
    Wingspan, m 6. 20
    Aircraft length, m
    Airplane height, m 1. 85
    Wing area, m2 7.00
    Weight, kg
    empty aircraft
    maximum takeoff
    engine's type 1 PD Anzani
    Power, hp 1 x 35
    Maximum speed, km / h
    Cruising speed, km / h
    Practical range, km
    Rate of climb, m / min
    Practical ceiling, m
    Crew one

    List of sources:
    Henri Hegener. Foker - The Men and the Aircraft
    Deutsche Flugzeugtechnik 1900-1920. Heft No.IV. Fokker und seine flugzeug
    Dutch-aviation.nl. Fokker V.40
    http://www.airwar.ru/enc/law1/fokv40.html
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    Last edited by cluttonfred; March 11th, 2019 at 02:56 PM.
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    Registered User ScaleBirdsScott's Avatar
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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    Shoot, I feel like I could build that over a long weekend if all the parts were cutout already. And the Verner 3V is the right size for sure.
    Designing and Building WWII replica fighters. US Dealer for Verner Motor
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    Registered User Victor Bravo's Avatar
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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    Quote Originally Posted by ScaleBirdsScott View Post
    Shoot, I feel like I could build that over a long weekend if all the parts were cutout already. And the Verner 3V is the right size for sure.
    Baslee already offers a tube and rivet (fuselage) for a 3/4 scale D-8. So reducing the same fuselage down a little more to the correct size for this replica can't be much work at all. All the proportions and gusset locations are done. The Baslee D-8 is apparently capable of meeting Part 103 (according to their website... no idea if this is easily accomplished). But their D-8 is sized for 60HP engines, so shrinking it a little bit (for the 3V) seems like the fuselage would be lighter by some amount even if the tube dameters and wall thicknesses were the same.

    Baslee already has a workable tail section, landing gear, and cabane layout for this.

    Now, take one of Fritz' quick-built wooden Ranger wings, either all wood or wood with the foam/wood capstrip ribs. If the Fokker Sport is a constant chord wing then it gets even easier and faster.

    Your 3 cylinder engine is of course ideal, and adds a tremendous amount of nostalgia and COOL factor.

    Now here's my big Macchiavellian psych warfare deal-closer, to get you completely hooked and reeled in on this: It would create another entry in the delightful market niche created by the Flitzer biplane, and it would attract the same type of builder/owner/customer. An entire "lost history finally revealed" story line can be created like they did with the Flitzer.

    But your little Fokker would have a big competitive advantage over the Flitzer: It would be far less daunting and time-consuming of a project, thanks to the more modern and faster construction methods of the tube and gusset fuselage and Fritz' QB wing.
    "Everything in this book may be wrong."
    Richard Bach, Illusions

    "Common sense is so rare today, it should be reclassified as a superpower!"
    Derswede


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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    There are two versions of the Baslee 3/4 scale dVIII. Long & short wing. And a new 100% scale version. Contact the designer for details.

    Should be as simple as designing new engine mounts and cleaning up the firewall. Power should be about perfect.

    The Airdrome versions are not, however, cantilever winged. The 3/4 scale has wing struts. Not sure about the new one.

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    Registered User cluttonfred's Avatar
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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    I really like the idea of a fictional post-WWI Dutch sport plane back story for a parasol design in the spirit of the Flitzer but easier and cheaper to build. I see the appeal of bolted/riveted aluminum tube and gusset construction but I'd still be tempted to go with welded 4130 steel tube fuselage and wood wings all covered in fabric. If Ed Fisher could do the Raceair Skylite at Part 103 weight with a 4130 fuselage then a plane about 200 lb heavier should be no problem.

    Start with the V.40, enlarge and simplify the wing further (untapered spar, straight ailerons), use a much larger rudder perhaps with an anti-servo tab though I'd explore stiff rudder springs instead for simplicity. Initial engine options could be 35-45 hp four-strokes so the 42 hp Verner 3VW or a 45 hp 1200 cc cut-case half VW would work. Those old Anzanis turned only about 1300 rpm so the props were huge, the 2500 rpm Verner or 3600 rpm VW would have smaller props so the main gear could be shorter, the wheels smaller. Build it to European single-seat microlight gross weight (315 kg/694 lb gross with a ballistic chute, 300 kg 661 lb without) and it should do fine as a fun flier on that power.
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    Voici ce que j'ai fait...vous pouvez en faire autant!
    "This is what I have done...you can do the same!"
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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    Quote Originally Posted by cluttonfred View Post
    It seems like a great solution...
    What is the problem that is being solved? I guess I don't understand what's leading you here other than a love for old/offbeat airplanes (which is perfectly OK).

    if the problem is cheap/easy construction, it seems that's been solved a number of times and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with a flat or semi-cantilevered parasol wing arrangement.
    ​simplify.

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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    I guess the idea is that there is more than one way to accomplish the cheap/easy goal and this could be one of them.
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    Matthew Long, Editor
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    A site for builders, owners and fans of Eric Clutton's FRED and other safe, simple, affordable homebuilt aircraft

    Voici ce que j'ai fait...vous pouvez en faire autant!
    "This is what I have done...you can do the same!"
    --Henri Mignet (1893-1965)

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    Registered User Toobuilder's Avatar
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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    Just an observation here, but if some of you guys paid yourself a dime every time you participated in a "cheap and easy airplane" thread you could be flying an "expensive and complex" one by now.

    Just saying...

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    Registered User cluttonfred's Avatar
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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    I suspect that your math is a little off, but really it comes down to what you like, what tickles your imagination. I have absolutely zero interest supercars or luxury cars or massive SUVs, but a nicely restored old Beetle or Mini or 2CV gets me every time. The same holds true -- for me -- for most factory general aviation aircraft and many kit planes as compared to simple, low-powered rag-and-tube taildraggers and inexpensive plans-built planes. Different strokes....

    Quote Originally Posted by Toobuilder View Post
    Just an observation here, but if some of you guys paid yourself a dime every time you participated in a "cheap and easy airplane" thread you could be flying an "expensive and complex" one by now. Just saying...
    *******
    Matthew Long, Editor
    cluttonfred.info
    A site for builders, owners and fans of Eric Clutton's FRED and other safe, simple, affordable homebuilt aircraft

    Voici ce que j'ai fait...vous pouvez en faire autant!
    "This is what I have done...you can do the same!"
    --Henri Mignet (1893-1965)

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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    The Airdrome version of the D.VIII already uses a stacked tube with dual sheer web spar.

    If a tapered wing is not desired, then the Morane-Saulnier may, with tail shapes modified to suit your Dutch/Fokker recreational plane "replica" might save a lot of work.

    http://www.airdromeaeroplanes.com/morane.html

    Some questions you have to ask yourself are....

    How important is a non tapered wing? Why? Better stall? Ease of build? ( how hard is multiple rib patterns vs. All same? )

    Are looks that important? ( sure, of course! ) then do you prefer a nearly forgotten fighter look, or an even more obscure light plane look? Or maybe a fantasy, steampunk, Zeppelin aircraft carrier fighter? Perhaps a Sopwith style tail?

    Wulfenbach Castle Defence Force?

    http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comi...3#.XIfrF98pB0s

    By all means read the next few pages.... It's typical thread drift here.

    http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comi...0#.XIfreN8pB0s plus next page, really!

    http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comi...5#.XIfqht8pB0s

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    Registered User ScaleBirdsScott's Avatar
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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    The benefit to something like the v.40 (aside from my obvious interests in a platform for a 3V) is that it's a cool-looking design with some interesting historical provenance from one of the legends of early aviation history, that as a full-scale nuts-and-bolts replica could still easily fall within being a light-sport, possible ultralight, and use any of a number of low-power and affordable engines. Add to it that, with maybe some concession for modern and simplified construction methods not available at the time we could make it something as easy to build as any other parasol ultralight, is a bonus.

    Now the general concept of a cantilever parasol of similar construction without just building a 1:1 replica v40 is still interesting but doesn't have some of those features. For me it is more a case of preference. I see a certain elegance in it, in that you build a single wing tip to tip on a table, and then hang a plane from it, and so there's a conceptual simplicity to it that is interesting. The fact that it doesn't just look like every other strut-braced high-wing is a bonus; I like that it keeps the cabanes splayed far out from the forward view as well.
    Designing and Building WWII replica fighters. US Dealer for Verner Motor
    Learn more at www.ScaleBirds.com

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    Registered User Toobuilder's Avatar
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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    Quote Originally Posted by cluttonfred View Post
    I suspect that your math is a little off, but really it comes down to what you like, what tickles your imagination. I have absolutely zero interest supercars or luxury cars or massive SUVs, but a nicely restored old Beetle or Mini or 2CV gets me every time. The same holds true -- for me -- for most factory general aviation aircraft and many kit planes as compared to simple, low-powered rag-and-tube taildraggers and inexpensive plans-built planes. Different strokes....
    Yes, the math was tongue in cheek, but the point remains that there are endless threads concerning the "cheap/easy" airplane and that means a LOT of time burned up bashing keys instead of welding/gluing. Bashing keys is not the most effective path to an airplane, even an "easy" one, but it does burn resources at a high rate.

    There is a point where one has to stop searching and just pick something, don't you think?

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    Registered User cluttonfred's Avatar
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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    I have picked something, an Evans Volksplane VP-2, but that doesn’t mean I don’t want to talk about other homebuilt planes and especially design ideas. In my personal case, my work has meant an international move for my family each year since 2016, and another this summer, so I read and write and scheme and dream until the day I can build and fly.
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    Matthew Long, Editor
    cluttonfred.info
    A site for builders, owners and fans of Eric Clutton's FRED and other safe, simple, affordable homebuilt aircraft

    Voici ce que j'ai fait...vous pouvez en faire autant!
    "This is what I have done...you can do the same!"
    --Henri Mignet (1893-1965)

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