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Thread: Old HKS engines?

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    Old HKS engines?

    Greetings,

    I'm just starting to look for an HKS 700E, and it seems like there are a lot of these that are really old, with little to no hours on them. It's almost like they sold a bunch with projects that never got completed, and they turn up for sale occasionally. If you were to find an early (10-15 years old) engine that was just stored all this time, what are the chances it would be safe to use without a lot of parts replacement?

    Assuming it's not pickled for for long term storage, I'm afraid of finding lots of corrosion. At the very least, I'm thinking you'd want to do a basic overhaul to replace seals, and check for corrosion. The real question is whether this would be affordable, or if it would turn a reasonably priced engine into a overpriced mistake.

    Also, how about updated versions? I saw a listing from GreenSkyAdv that said SN 100600 was when some improvements were made, and they raised the TBO to 1000 hrs. Is it worth avoiding an earlier engine if the price is right? Were there any other SN milestones where significant changes were made?

    Thanks,
    Rusty

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    Re: Old HKS engines?

    I don't know about an HKS Rusty, but I do know about a Rotax 582. A brand new rotax will "time out" requiring an overhaul. So unused setting in a crate it will need an overhaul, I forgot the amount of time. Its in the manual though.

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    Re: Old HKS engines?

    Different critters. HKS is a four stroke, four strokes can still suffer corrosion if stored in a damp location and not pickled, but are much less susceptible, in general, to timing out due to sitting. If it's clean and oily inside, inspect and new seals and gaskets. Disclaimer, I know nothing about HKS specifically.
    I'm right 97% of the time, who cares about the other 4%......

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    Registered User Victor Bravo's Avatar
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    Re: Old HKS engines?

    Rusty, whatever you do make sure to copy whatever Larry Cottrell did on his HKS/Kolb installation. Some of the things I did on mine were pretty clever and bright and sexy.... and yet it was essentially an un-successful installation. Most of my problems were coming from having the wrong gearbox... make absolutely sure you have the 2.58 gearbox before you buy any engine.
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    Re: Old HKS engines?

    Quote Originally Posted by 13brv3 View Post
    Greetings,

    I'm just starting to look for an HKS 700E, and it seems like there are a lot of these that are really old, with little to no hours on them. It's almost like they sold a bunch with projects that never got completed, and they turn up for sale occasionally. If you were to find an early (10-15 years old) engine that was just stored all this time, what are the chances it would be safe to use without a lot of parts replacement?

    Assuming it's not pickled for for long term storage, I'm afraid of finding lots of corrosion. At the very least, I'm thinking you'd want to do a basic overhaul to replace seals, and check for corrosion. The real question is whether this would be affordable, or if it would turn a reasonably priced engine into a overpriced mistake.

    Also, how about updated versions? I saw a listing from GreenSkyAdv that said SN 100600 was when some improvements were made, and they raised the TBO to 1000 hrs. Is it worth avoiding an earlier engine if the price is right? Were there any other SN milestones where significant changes were made?

    Thanks,
    Rusty
    ================================================== ==========

    The New HKS 700E is a 60HP, horizontally opposed two-cylinder, four-stroke engine. I believe they only offered a 2.58 an a 3.47:1 Gearbox for them. New one's seem aweful exspensive for only 60hp. A New Rotax 912 80hp is $15813.00/ea from CPS. A New 582UL(65hp) FWF is around $8000.
    http://hksengines.com/technical-info

    Typical Costs:
    ENGINE: $11,800.00
    EXHAUST SYSTEM: $729.00
    OIL TANK: $608.00
    OIL COOLER: $279.00
    THROTTLE AND CHOKE CABLES: $120 each: $240.00

    SAMPLE PACKAGE W/ABOVE:* $13,656.00

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    Re: Old HKS engines?

    I couldn't find anything on the HKS official site, but I did find these two links on the greensky site. They mention different TBO (hours and years) depending on the SN of the engine. I guess I'd have to ask them what an overhaul kit would cost.

    https://www.greenskyadventures.com/t...-sn100600.html (500 hrs/5yrs)
    http://greenskyadventures.com/tbo-from-sn100600.html (1000 hrs/8yrs)

    I've read that parts prices are pretty high on the HKS, and from what I could see, that's true. A carb rebuild kit is nearly $500, so I can't imagine what it would cost to replace a corroded cam or crank.

    Good to know about the gear ratio. I would have assumed the 2.58 was the way to go, since nearly every Rotax used that ratio on the Kolbs, and of course the engine I inquired about had the 3.47. The ratio can certainly be changed, but at what cost.

    I'm pretty open to any established 4-stroke in the 60-80 HP range, which includes the HKS, 912, and Jabiru 2200. I'm in the process of trying to figure out which will be the most reasonably priced for a used engine.

    Thanks,
    Rusty

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    Registered User Victor Bravo's Avatar
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    Re: Old HKS engines?

    Quote Originally Posted by 13brv3 View Post
    The ratio can certainly be changed, but at what cost.
    About $2000, because I looked into it with Grreen Sky.

    Definitely look into the Pegasus Power O-100 before you spend money on anything else.
    "Everything in this book may be wrong."
    Richard Bach, Illusions

    "Common sense is so rare today, it should be reclassified as a superpower!"
    Derswede


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    Re: Old HKS engines?

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor Bravo View Post
    About $2000, because I looked into it with Grreen Sky.

    Definitely look into the Pegasus Power O-100 before you spend money on anything else.
    $2k would be painful. That must have been for a new drive. I'd hope maybe to find someone with the opposite problem who wanted to trade. I'll definitely keep this in mind while shopping.

    While the Pegasus Power engine is interesting, it certainly doesn't meet the "established" criteria. Best I can tell, they have one prototype flying, and no real news in the last year and a half. The packaging would be much more suited for a tractor style installation as well.

    Rusty
    Last edited by 13brv3; January 30th, 2019 at 05:15 PM.

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    Re: Old HKS engines?

    If you can swing a large diameter prop why rule out the 3.47 gearbox?

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    Re: Old HKS engines?

    Prop diameter is limited on Kolbs, but without that limitation it might be a good option. The only way to run larger props is to raise the engine and thrust line even higher than it already is.

    Rusty

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    Re: Old HKS engines?

    Quote Originally Posted by 13brv3 View Post

    While the Pegasus Power engine is interesting, it certainly doesn't meet the "established" criteria. Best I can tell, they have one prototype flying, and no real news in the last year and a half. The packaging would be much more suited for a tractor style installation as well.

    Rusty
    The Pegasus is built directly on the design and architecture of the oldest and most reliable aircraft engine series in modern history. It's as close to "Established" as you can get for a new engine. There are literally tens of millions of flight hours on the engines the Pegasus was derived from.

    The Pegasus was specifically designed (thrust bearing, carburetor location and mounting) to be equally good for pushers or tractors.
    "Everything in this book may be wrong."
    Richard Bach, Illusions

    "Common sense is so rare today, it should be reclassified as a superpower!"
    Derswede


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    Re: Old HKS engines?

    Or you can run a four blade prop

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    Re: Old HKS engines?

    So are there any other comments, good or bad about the HKS? I'm just gathering as much info as I can.

    Thanks,
    Rusty

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    Re: Old HKS engines?

    Quote Originally Posted by 13brv3 View Post
    So are there any other comments, good or bad about the HKS? I'm just gathering as much info as I can.
    I remember James Wiebe bought a used HKS to use in the Chipper but he had some major problems with it. He ended up ditching it altogether for the Rotax 912.

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    Re: Old HKS engines?

    I have about five hours of actual flight time in the HKS 700E powered Kolb. And another five hours or so of ground runs, taxi test, etc. The engine performed perfectly, and it never gave me any reason to be suspicious. The only problem I ever had was that it frequently would lose a lot of RPM on one ignition during a runup. Turned out to be the ignition switch ground, nothing to do with the engine itself. I had the larger rectangular oil cooler, and it was plenty for the Kolb... I even had to put a winterization plate in frornt of it. But I had built a really nice duct to mount the cooler in because I was afraid of overheating it in the desert in high temps.

    IIRC the HKS engines built AFTER the big recall had an additional oil line coming out of the oil pump scavenge side, to bypass the cooler if necessary. When the engine was cold and the oil was thick, the oil in the cooler would not flow fast enough back to the tank, and it would back-pressure the oil system, and fill up the crankcase with oil which it was not designed for. I also recall that there were a couple more differences in the pre-recall and post-recall engines. But I beleieve the pre-recall engines were not unsafe. No rods through the case, no swallowing valves, nothing catastrophic. Just not as good or desirable as the later engine.

    Kind of like the difference in desirability between a Taylorcraft powered by the Lycoming 65HP engine and the Continental 65 HP engine

    By the way, the biggest issue I had with the HKS on the Kolb was that I tried to mount it as low as possible on the fuselage for thrust line reasons. But because of this I was unable to use the stock HKS exhaust system, because the trailing edge of the Kolb wing (the aileron torque tube) interfered with the exhaust pipe. This intefrerence was only with the wings foldeed back for storage. So if you install an HKS on your Kolb, take the time to figure out the wing fold clearance ahead of time, and mount the engine in such a waya that you have enough room to fold the wings.
    "Everything in this book may be wrong."
    Richard Bach, Illusions

    "Common sense is so rare today, it should be reclassified as a superpower!"
    Derswede


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