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Thread: Crashes in the News - Thread

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    Moderator Topaz's Avatar
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    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilant1 View Post
    I wonder if any actual new data came in, or if the external pressure got to be too much. I've heard a reference to "satellite tracking data" on the Ethiopian crash that caused some people to see similarities to the vertical excursions/behavior of the Lion Air flight, but I haven't seen anything close to unfiltered source data on that.
    I'd love to know what "satellite tracking data", available to civilians, has the spacial resolution to determine that the vertical excursions of the Ethiopian crash were "similar" to that of the Lion Air flight. Last I heart, satellite following gets aircraft position and altitude data every 1-3 minutes or so, if even that often.

    Anyone know of anything better, that would be available to civilian air-crash investigators?
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    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Geraldc View Post
    A quote from a news article "Any plane that is currently in the air will be allowed to land and they will be grounded until further notice"
    I guess they will need a ferry permit to get to a maintenance base or storage. I wonder how many SW passengers are stuck in a minor station with no flights out.
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    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Topaz View Post
    Anyone know of anything better, that would be available to civilian air-crash investigators?
    The good ol' Mode 3 transponder altitude data should be available to the Ethiopians, I would think. The US FAA said "new information from the wreckage concerning the aircraft's configuration just after takeoff that, taken together with newly refined data from satellite-based tracking of the aircraft's flight path, indicates some similarities" with the Lion Air crash. (from CNN)

    It is all quite opaque.

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    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilant1 View Post
    The good ol' Mode 3 transponder altitude data should be available to the Ethiopians, I would think. The US FAA said "new information from the wreckage concerning the aircraft's configuration just after takeoff that, taken together with newly refined data from satellite-based tracking of the aircraft's flight path, indicates some similarities" with the Lion Air crash. (from CNN)

    It is all quite opaque.
    Mode 3 isn't transmitted via satellite, is it?
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    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    I think it was ADS-B data that shows repeated climbs then dives. Perhaps six or more.
    Could be transmitted to satellites from ground stations, I suppose. I don't know how it works. Never heard of mode 3. (have used mode c)

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    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BBerson View Post
    I think it was ADS-B data that shows repeated climbs then dives. Perhaps six or more.
    via satellite?
    "If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them." - Henry David Thoreau

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    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    I am just guessing how it works. I think transmitting to satellites direct from aircraft is not likely.
    ADS-B works between nearby airplanes and ground stations. The ground stations might relay data worldwide on satellites is my guess.

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    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    The "data which shows similarities between the Ethiopian flight and the Lion Air flight" is supposedly from "satellite tracking." Which I think, unless someone can tell me otherwise, is another example of inaccurate media BS.

    Any non-satellite method is nice, but not relevant here, as that's not what's been reported.
    "If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them." - Henry David Thoreau

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    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    I saw the flight profile on the news. I don't know how they get it. But I think the tracking is public information from an Internet company.

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    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BBerson View Post
    Never heard of mode 3. (have used mode c)
    Oops, sorry, I reverted to a prior life. Mode 3/A is the military equivalent of Mode C. I should have just said "Mode C."

    And Mode C transponder data is not in any way "satellite- based tracking" it's just line-of-site between the aircraft and the ground-based IFF interrogator antenna. I suppose a very long stretch could be made and call ADS-B "satellite-based tracking", but only in the sense that GPS data (from satellites) is used by the acft to know where it is. That's clearly not really "satellite-based tracking." So, I still don't know what "satellite-based tracking" they are referring to.

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    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    ADS-B could use GPS for altitude, I suppose. But I think in this case the media might be just oversimplifying about the data source or how the mode c or ads-b track got sent across the world by satellite data transfer.
    The airline might have some private tracking system using a sat phone.

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    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bmcj View Post
    I hope you are right.
    Saw the news live. Headlines were pure hyperbole of course, but Trump implied that it was the FAA driving the boat. He just happened to agree with it.

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    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    ADS-B reception via satellite is possble, has been proven with testing, and is in works for providing coverage over oceans and empty areas.

    Not sure how much of it is operational yet.
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    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/f...es-flight-302/

    I think this is the data being referred. It is ADS-B data so it’s not incorrect to refer to it as satellite based since it is GPS data that is being relayed. Looks like they had a few momentary vvi bumps (no corresponding significant altitude changes) and an unusually high speed. Anyone know the msl altitude of the crash site?

    Edit: that link is not the most recent data. It’s the incomplete and sketchy data the FAA didn’t consider actionable. The most recent Aireon data that the FAA did act on yesterday has not been made public afaik.
    Last edited by davidb; March 14th, 2019 at 01:56 PM.

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    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    Looks like 8600 feet from where the data ended. Accelerating all the way from takeoff to 383 knots, only climbing 1000 feet in 3 minutes. Very unusual. I see the time stamp and it would seem that this was around 0840 local time so I assume it was light at the time? With a 250 knot speed limit so close to the airport, hmmm, I can only think they had erroneous ASI and altitude being displayed. Why else would they be climbing so slowly and going so fast?

    Does anyone know if they were in IMC?
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