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Thread: Raptor Composite Aircraft

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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Unfortunately, if the competence and track record of the "team" is being used to give a project credibility (with the public, with the media, and esp with investors), then it is natural any stumbles (or successes) of the project will also be laid at the feet of the members of the team. If it isn't truly a team, or if someone on the team believes their reputation is being put at risk by continued participation on the team, then it seems to me that person has a responsibility to get clear of the project and prevent the use of their name in promoting it, or at least make the situation known publicly--and early.

    "Success has many fathers. Failure is an orphan."
    Last edited by Vigilant1; March 7th, 2019 at 08:32 AM.

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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by canardlover View Post
    Guys , I would truly appreciate,and it would be far more accurate, if you all would stop using the word "they". The decision making process that led to this outcome was conducted in a very singular atmosphere.
    Fair enough.

    But please explain the scope of “Raptor Canard Design consulting and program direc”

    Thanks,


    BJC

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    Registered User rv6ejguy's Avatar
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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by canardlover View Post
    Guys , I would truly appreciate,and it would be far more accurate, if you all would stop using the word "they". The decision making process that led to this outcome was conducted in a very singular atmosphere. Both myself and Mark ( a successful competent engineer with many noteworthy projects in his cache, Viperjet,MX2,my Orion (2200 lbs empty wt, 4-6 place, TSIO 550 Cont.,all molded const.,Attachment 78894 larger than Raptor and Velocity XL),my RA2, and many others) tried diligently to positively influence the outcome of this endeavor to no avail and with much frustration and futility. Nuff said !!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry for the exclamation points Bob K.������
    Jeff, my post was a general commentary on newbie designers who tell us how inefficient current designs are and how theirs will be so much better. We've seen dozens over the years. Absolutely nothing directed at you. The "they" refers to Peter and folks like him who've never flown their design and proven their ambitious claims in the real world.

    You've cleared up that this is not your design and I can feel your frustration through your previous posts that you weren't able to help steer Peter on a better course on Raptor. The other projects you've worked on, completed and flown are amazing and we're happy to see you posting here. We can learn much from your experience.

    I can't understand why Peter would hire you for your experience and track record and then not listen to your advice.

    BTW, you mentioned "The Racer" in a previous post, can you share anything about that project or does that have to held close to the vest?
    Last edited by rv6ejguy; March 7th, 2019 at 11:16 AM.
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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by canardlover View Post
    Guys , I would truly appreciate,and it would be far more accurate, if you all would stop using the word "they"...
    Another actual pro tip: If you don't want to be associated with whackadoodle programs, then don't associate with whackadoodle programs. When you do find yourself in a whackadoodle program, your primary choices are pretty much to straighten it out or get clear before the **** hits the fan. And if you do get **** on you, well, learn to laugh about it while you let it dry, then it will pretty much flake off on its own.

    In this specific case, a program leader with no established track record in aircraft design or aircraft development, aerodynamics, or aircraft structures, looked into his SolidWorks palantir and saw a glorious vision of the future. "Hey," he said, enthralled, "All the big boys who have been doing this stuff for decades don't know ****. The structures folks, the aerodynamics guys, the engine guys, they're all a bunch of pikers. We'll use carbon fiber and turbodiesel and canardary and frikken' blow their doors off!"

    The Raptor could definitely have been, and still can be, some sort of success. The canard configuration has some very nifty packaging advantages when it comes to discretely-packaged self-loading cargo like Soylent Green. And the v^2 term in the expressions for drag tells us that a five-foot wide cabin isn't so bad as long as long as you don't try to go too fast. So there is still plenty of potential here for a very comfortable personal transport with the kind of interior space and insulation that makes for low-fatigue aviating. Point-to-point, it and a ten-dollar Uber would blow the doors off driving or even the airlines. But only if it flies, and flies well. My next pro tip would be to concentrate on that.

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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Still, I think there is more to gain from a completed bad design, than from a cancelled good one. It is also good to see them failing. For companies, this would be hidden by message control. Of course not good for the investors, but this is what risk means. There are thousands of Kickstarter where my expertise says it won't work and still they are successful as hell (and fail in the end).

    As for the engine, the performance figures are only valid for automotive use. These are not built for continuous high torque.The twin turbo design is meant for a highly dynamic environment where you have to adapt to quick torque changes at high efficiency. I was also part of the tri-turbo inline six development from BMW. They had a 3 liter block with ~700Nm max torque and their idea was to have this torque available at virtually every RPM. For a plane, you will stay at 70% almost the whole time, so more than one turbo is nonsense.

    There is a ultralight company in germany (FK lightplanes) which created their own engine based on a Mercedes Smart engine. They realized, that the turbos experienced problems above 10k feet, as cars are not designed for that altitude. For the Raptor this will be much more of a problem, as engine will have to be drastically reduced at cruise altitude.

    @Jeff: for production it would be best to get the AE440 from Diamond (not in series production yet) instead of the Audi.

    Edit: For anything else than Experimental it will be necessary to have redundant CPU and injectors, a turbo geometry for 20k feet, an engine block for constant torque use (Diamond switched from using Mercedes to agricultural Steyr blocks for new designs!). They had some hard lessons since the Thielert

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    Registered User rv6ejguy's Avatar
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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Scheny View Post

    As for the engine, the performance figures are only valid for automotive use. These are not built for continuous high torque.The twin turbo design is meant for a highly dynamic environment where you have to adapt to quick torque changes at high efficiency. I was also part of the tri-turbo inline six development from BMW. They had a 3 liter block with ~700Nm max torque and their idea was to have this torque available at virtually every RPM. For a plane, you will stay at 70% almost the whole time, so more than one turbo is nonsense.

    There is a ultralight company in germany (FK lightplanes) which created their own engine based on a Mercedes Smart engine. They realized, that the turbos experienced problems above 10k feet, as cars are not designed for that altitude. For the Raptor this will be much more of a problem, as engine will have to be drastically reduced at cruise altitude.

    @Jeff: for production it would be best to get the AE440 from Diamond (not in series production yet) instead of the Audi.

    Edit: For anything else than Experimental it will be necessary to have redundant CPU and injectors, a turbo geometry for 20k feet, an engine block for constant torque use (Diamond switched from using Mercedes to agricultural Steyr blocks for new designs!). They had some hard lessons since the Thielert
    The staged turbos are required to hold cruise power MAP at 25,000 feet on a diesel. A single stage can't develop the required pressure ratio. The diesel needs 80-90 inches to make the required power and ambient pressure at 25K is 11 inches so PR = 7-8. Most turbos can do a max of around 4 PR per stage with a billet wheel. This being said, Peter also has the wrong turbos and arrangement on the engine as he doesn't understand compressor matching on diesels having used SI spreadsheets to do that. He also doesn't think there is anything wrong with 1800F TITs even though I, and several others, told him that is way too high for a diesel. He also doesn't understand how surge margin is likely to be a big issue in his application. In short, he doesn't have any experience in the field and yet somehow thinks he's qualified to design this system. His arrogance and ignorance in replying to some of the knowledgeable comments on his videos is telling IMO of his general attitude towards taking advice.

    I agree, most people attempting aero turbocharging with the factory auto turbos don't have a clue what they are doing. I've helped many people match proper turbos after they exploded the OEM ones at altitude (overspeed) or saw dangerous TIT or compressor discharge temps. Just like aero design, you don't do a staged turbo setup on an aircraft as your first attempt in the turbocharging field. Peter needed a turbo expert and engine expert in on the Raptor project.

    I've also said he doesn't have a clue about proper heat exchanger layout or ducting for effectiveness and low drag. His present rad, intercooler and oil cooler layout is a dog's breakfast which won't work well and is super heavy and complicated. Air doesn't magically flow through thick HXs at obtuse angles to the airflow with no ducting to contain and direct it. It chooses the path of least resistance and flows around them instead.
    Last edited by rv6ejguy; March 8th, 2019 at 01:45 PM.
    Ross Farnham
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    "The world is changed by your example, not by your opinion" Paulo Coelho
    http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html




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  12. #487
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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by rv6ejguy View Post
    ... I wonder how they will take the backlash when they fail after calling the established players a bunch of dummies before he started their own wonder project.
    The same way all the other groups who've been down this particular road have: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance. Unfortunately, in a lot of cases, the "Anger" stage tends to be very public, and with the anger itself pointed at everyone around them. Often, via the press, they're able to reach a much larger audience for their anger.
    "If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them." - Henry David Thoreau

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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by canardlover View Post
    Guys , I would truly appreciate,and it would be far more accurate, if you all would stop using the word "they". The decision making process that led to this outcome was conducted in a very singular atmosphere. Both myself and Mark... tried diligently to positively influence the outcome of this endeavor to no avail and with much frustration and futility....
    Trust me, Jeff. I feel your pain. Please see my post #422, earlier in this thread. Been there, done that.

    Quote Originally Posted by rv6ejguy View Post
    ... I can't understand why Peter would hire you for your experience and track record and then not listen to your advice...
    Ever done a lot of consulting, Ross? Sometimes I think this is the normal way things are. The client has their wonderful idea, and just wants you, "The Expert," to rubber-stamp their brainchild and "make it work." They don't want to hear anything but "yes, your idea is grrrrrreaat!!"

    This documentary of a business meeting, almost identical to some I've actually attended, demonstrates it well.



    Then again, I just fired a major client because they consistently kept doing this, so my cynicism meter may be running a little high right now.
    Last edited by Topaz; March 8th, 2019 at 01:07 PM.
    "If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them." - Henry David Thoreau

    Design Project: Conceptual Design of an "Inexpensive" Single-Seat Motorglider
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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Topaz View Post
    Then again, I just fired a major client because they consistently kept doing this, so my cynicism meter may be running a little high right now.
    I enjoyed that video the first time it was posted here. Found it amusing enough to forward. Something I don't often do. Today I find it quite annoying and frustrating.

    Maybe it's just the current news cycle? ........ or that I've been trying to do some register level programming - something I haven't done in nearly 30 years?

    /*Begin introspective cycle*/
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    Problem solved.

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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Hot Wings View Post
    ... /*Begin introspective cycle*/
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The video becomes more annoying and frustrating the closer it comes to your real life.
    "If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them." - Henry David Thoreau

    Design Project: Conceptual Design of an "Inexpensive" Single-Seat Motorglider
    Discussion Thread for the Project: Discussion: Conceptual Design of an "Inexpensive" Single-Seat Motorglider

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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    My trick when consulting is to not charge for my services in the last 20 years or so. I just help folks out so they can enjoy flying or racing their plane.That way, if they don't listen, I can simply walk away and watch them fail from a distance... Had lots do that.

    They ask for your advice because they don't know what to do (makes sense). Ignore your advice (not sure why they asked in the first place). Proceed to blow up a bunch of stuff, wasting more time and money. Finally give up, hopefully without hurting themselves in the process.

    For the most part, this involves clients using our EFI/EI on their engines so I figured I already got paid.
    Last edited by rv6ejguy; March 8th, 2019 at 05:57 PM.
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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by rv6ejguy View Post
    ... Peter also has the wrong turbos and arrangement on the engine as he doesn't understand compressor matching on diesels... He also doesn't think there is anything wrong ... He also doesn't understand ... In short, he doesn't have any experience in the field and yet somehow thinks he's qualified to design this system. His arrogance and ignorance... I've also said he doesn't have a clue about ... His present rad, intercooler and oil cooler layout is a dog's breakfast...
    Ross, you're going to have to elucidate here - I'm not quite sure I'm getting the import of your understanding of the situation.

    But other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?

    And boy, I love the expression "dog's breakfast".

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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by rv6ejguy View Post
    His present rad, intercooler and oil cooler layout is a dog's breakfast...
    OK, I was laughing out loud at this one, and it sounded like an insult, but I was not certain what Ross meant. So I HAD to look it up. This what I found:

    "dog's breakfast," which has been British slang for "a complete mess" ... the allusion involved seems to be to a failed culinary effort, perhaps a burned or botched omelet, fit only for consumption by the mouth of last resort, Fido. As a vivid figure of speech meaning something so fouled up as to be utterly useless, "dog's breakfast" can cover anything from a play plagued by collapsing scenery to a space mission ruined by a mathematical error... Both phrases are heard occasionally in the U.S., but are more common in the U.K. and Commonwealth countries.

    So, now you know. LOL.
    Billski's opinions expressed here are available free and may be worth the money you paid for them. Understand that they are based upon a successful combination of education and a lifetime of experience using that education, but I can not know everything about your circumstances. Your choices are yours alone, and you must be the final judge on what you do. No whining...

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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Some vestiges of colonial rule cling on here to this day... Anyway, the Brits have some smashing sayings. Ok, I'll stop now.
    Ross Farnham
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    "The world is changed by your example, not by your opinion" Paulo Coelho
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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    I've not really been following this discusission but on a whim read the last few pages.

    If I put myself in this Peter guy's shoes, it seems that the only important goal is to make a thing that manages to obtain the property of flies=yes.

    Because accomplishing that is at least a validation of some kind to investors/followers/etc that this project has realized some kind of goal and that, even if the result (as so often is the case today) is in fact mostly only fit for a Doggo Meal, it has served as a proof and catalyst for further development.

    But because he has no track record, stopping at this point to start over with something that might fly better is seen as just stalling or going backwards or worse. That's when support from those on the fence falls off, key people leave, money gets pulled, and the legacy is that you half-built a trash-pile.

    But if it's a flying trash-pile it has the future potential to not suck and be refined. Ultimately if the first version misses many targets and has crap performance, he can just chalk it up to being "rough around the edges" but still have a picture or two plus some YouTube footage to prove to people who definitely don't know much about all this design stuff that he knows how to put together a team that makes a flying airplane. The actual performance is irrelevant; changes are inevitable whether big or minor; so why do it now when you can wait and get paid for it?

    A lot of this discussion seems to be assuming a proper response of someone who wants to create a good thing the right way and would try and take the most efficient and learned path. And there's obviously a pathway to success there. But from what I'm reading, it sounds like this guy is just punting the ball while moving the goalposts and hoping to at least make a first down or keep possession or what-not until he can "do a score" of some kind (Maybe you can tell my grasp of American Football is somewhat tenuous?) Hail Mary Pass? What other football metaphors and phrases apply here? Probably more than pounds overweight their prototype is.

    Lost my train of thought researching football so, tl;dr I guess is, Dunning–Kruger + resources + hard work + good persuasion skills gets a lot of things done in this world. One option is it could yield a second, better attempt down the road.

    The other option, it ends in: Click image for larger version. 

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