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Thread: Raptor Composite Aircraft

  1. #436
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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Guys ,
    I will keep this short and sweet. You can read whatever you want to in between the lines. I was asked to come on board and given a title but by no means full control over direction. I had to correct the aero on the RC model I built and flew to test basic stability characteristics and was always second guessed when every issue was discovered and my advice/recommendations given. As Andrey (anvegger) stated THIS IS NOT MY DESIGN !!!!! I do indeed have a lot of experience and a good track record having been involved in some significant programs ( Styling design and tooling execution for Velocity XL, My Orion TS and smaller GT ( silver canard on website in the our story section), My RA2 Acro, My present Voodoo/Stryker/Talon exercize,Maverick Twinjet, Stewart S51,Commuter Craft Innovator (NOT MY DESIGN),Was asked to join Synergy by John, and probably some I have foorgotten , as well as professionally building a dozen or so other homebuilt kits, etc. Give me a fair shake here and go visit my website as Turbine Aeronautics ( Dave) suggested and as well our Facebook page X- Project . There you can see the level of experience, creativity, insight, execution , and professionalism which we normally and faithfully impart in OUR OWN PROGRAMS!!!!! Thanks guys.

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    Wink Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by BoKu View Post
    His LinkedIn profile doesn't show much in the way of formal engineering credentials.

    BTW, my " Formal Education" came from decades of aircraft design ,along with my late father, starting at the age of 9 in the model airplane world ( many dozens of designs between the two of us) grew up to become a successful world class competitor in the RC Formula One Pylon racing world ( 200 plus mph models 30 feet off the deck around the poles). Full scale aviation was both boring and not very challenging compared to what we did in the modeling world ( not every modeler , mind you). I then discovered EAA and experimental aviation and was attracted to the idea of pursuing full scale formula 1 racing and aerobatics probably designing my own racer,and acro ship. Well here we are today and I have designed and prototyped the largest most advance successfully flown Canard Kitplane( Orion). Flown by one of the most capable professional/ex military Test Pilots in the world and he stated it is the best flying canard he had flown ( hes flown all of them , Longs, Velos,Cozy Jet, etc) .I have desgned my own succcessfully flown Acro ship( tested by Skip Holm ). There are many more designs, awaiting completion of the Voodoo program, that will come into being as well. One of which is a badass looking 4 place Amphib that as a 9 fot RC model flies amazing and puts the ICON to shame Aesthetically. For the record, I attended and excelled in the University of Been There/ Done That, with a masters in Aircraft Design from the School of Hard Knocks and hold a minor in Practical Application of Hard Earned experimentally refined real life hands on no bull**** Aircraft Design experience. I hope this dispells any doubt as to my abilities. Remember Wilbur and Orville, I dont believe they attended Georgia Tech, or Parks, or Purdue,etc. LOL !!!!

    P.S. The Racer is coming !!!!!!!

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  4. #438
    Registered User BoKu's Avatar
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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by canardlover View Post
    ...professionalism which we normally and faithfully impart in OUR OWN PROGRAMS!!!!! Thanks guys.
    Actual pro tip: When boasting about professionalism, use paragraphs and avoid ending your sentences with exclamation points.
    Bob Kuykendall
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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by canardlover View Post
    Guys ,
    I will keep this short and sweet. You can read whatever you want to in between the lines. I was asked to come on board and given a title but by no means full control over direction. ...
    Forgive me if I missed it, but you're Jeff, yes?

    One of the really challenging things about this discussion is that we don't have access to the thinking behind some of the design decisions we've been discussing, so we have to resort to speculation. If you can shed some light on any of these matters, it'd be very helpful. I'm sure you'll see some of them debated, but that's the nature of a forum, and I hope it won't dissuade you from continuing here at HBA.
    "If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them." - Henry David Thoreau

    Design Project: Conceptual Design of an "Inexpensive" Single-Seat Motorglider
    Discussion Thread for the Project: Discussion: Conceptual Design of an "Inexpensive" Single-Seat Motorglider

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  8. #440
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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Bob, we have met at Oshkosh and got along famously.

    This response was not an attack directed at you, but rather an attempt at clearing the air of doubt with regard to my ability and credentials. Please accept my apology if you took it as an offensive response.

    I will admit It was typed in haste and some degree of ire. I have done good things in this industry and am respected amongst my peers and former clients,etc. However I will not stand by idly when being questioned of my abilities and potentially falling prey to a situation of " guilt through association".

    Please dont assume I am directing the program and making the decisions you collectively question in your observations of this development program. I am not a principle in this company, just an employee,

    Thanks for your understanding

    Highest Regards,

    Jeff Kerlo

    p.s. As Jack Nicholson once said "Koos Fraba"

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    Registered User BoKu's Avatar
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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by canardlover View Post
    Bob, we have met at Oshkosh and got along famously.

    This response was not an attack directed at you, but rather an attempt at clearing the air of doubt with regard to my ability and credentials. Please accept my apology if you took it as an offensive response.

    I will admit It was typed in haste and some degree of ire. I have done good things in this industry and am respected amongst my peers and former clients,etc. However I will not stand by idly when being questioned of my abilities and potentially falling prey to a situation of " guilt through association".

    Please dont assume I am directing the program and making the decisions you collectively question in your observations of this development program. I am not a principle in this company, just an employee, ...
    Thanks for that response, and for the reminder that there are actual people behind the keyboards behind these posts on the Internet. My apologies for the snark.

    Yes, you've worked on some amazing projects. But I agree with Topaz and Ross; Raptor in particular has been subject to amazing claims that are not supported by the facts so far in evidence. Repeated mis-steps of design and execution that are glaringly at odds with the image projected by the YouTube videos only bolster the idea that this program has more sizzle than meat. And if that proves the case in the end, it won't reflect well on anybody associated with it.

    --Bob K.
    Bob Kuykendall
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  11. #442
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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Jeff, I highlighted some of the designs you've been involved with and the list is impressive. What we were not able to determine was your level of involvement with the Raptor design and you've set that straight here. Thank you. Your role there may be more difficult than some realize given this information. Topaz already surmised that you might not be controlling the project directly despite the title you've been given.

    My compliments to your fine work on building the Raptor. It's an amazing undertaking.

    I do hope Peter brings in some equally learned and experienced people on the powerplant side...

    You mention "The Racer". I'm intrigued. Is this to compete at Reno and if so, in what class?
    Last edited by rv6ejguy; February 28th, 2019 at 08:33 PM.
    Ross Farnham
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    "The world is changed by your example, not by your opinion" Paulo Coelho
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  12. #443
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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    The engine was run in the airframe again, some weighing of components done, winglets closed out, brakes bled, elevator and foreplane about to be closed out. Again, lots of progress on the project. Peter has wisely decided to fix the upper scoop in position and use the exit scoop to control airflow now as everyone else in the world does. They spent a lot of time to build a complicated and fragile looking actuation system for the inlet scoop.

    Taking shape quickly now. Will have to be moved to the airport sometime this month I'd guess.
    Ross Farnham
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    "The world is changed by your example, not by your opinion" Paulo Coelho
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  13. #444
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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Who will be the test pilot?


    BJC

  14. #445
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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by BJC View Post
    Who will be the test pilot?


    BJC
    I haven't heard that discussed yet. The airframe parachute is a good idea with so many unproven things here.
    Ross Farnham
    Racetech Inc.
    16 years and 428.6 hours on Subaru Turbo powered RV6A
    "The world is changed by your example, not by your opinion" Paulo Coelho
    http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html




  15. #446
    Registered User anvegger's Avatar
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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by canardlover View Post
    ... I do indeed have a lot of experience and a good track record having been involved in some significant programs.. Thanks guys.
    Saying that and supporting this statement I have a crew in Kiev sending tons of high fives and thanks for Jeff's work. Someone told me in person to say HI to Jeff and let him know that his work saved tons of headaches and errors to the team, and I quote: "Someone like Jeff can replace 20 of my juniors in the factory". I used to publish the translates of about 100 episodes into Cyrillic until Google Translate picked it up and now folks in Ukraine are watching directly sometimes asking for minor translation when needed. Jeff on behalf of many of us I'd like to thank you for your diligence and incredible attention to many details of that project's execution/ Please keep building this plane - we are all can't wait to see her flying

    Cheers

  16. #447
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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Well they weighed the Raptor today and it's over 600 pounds heavier than the projected weight on the website. This doesn't include paint and all the interior bits. This is about 700 pounds heavier than a Cirrus SR22 which he likes to compare to. So the useful load at the same gross slips to 900 from 1500. Full fuel useful load drops to 100 pounds, so you can't even take a 100 pound pilot aloft with full fuel, oil and coolant added. Takeoff distance, climb rate and ceiling will all take a huge hit once the gross is raised to make the design even marginally useful. The 5 seats could never be used except for a flight around the pattern.

    To put this in perspective, the empty weight of this aircraft exceeds the gross weight of a 4 place RV-10 by 200 pounds.

    It's 1100 pounds heavier than a Velocity XL-5 and it's empty weight is the same as the gross weight of that aircraft (also 5 seats).

    A Lancair IV-P is the most comparable- pressurized, 4 place, retractable gear, actually doing 290 knots cruise at altitude. The IV-P weighs 700 pounds less, has 550 pounds more useful load. No way the Raptor will come anywhere close to this performance. Nothing revolutionary here.

    Sorry to say but this is what happens when someone has no background in aircraft design or structures...

    Still interesting to watch it get to the airport and start testing but major revisions will be required to make the project viable as originally envisioned.
    Last edited by rv6ejguy; March 6th, 2019 at 08:39 AM.
    Ross Farnham
    Racetech Inc.
    16 years and 428.6 hours on Subaru Turbo powered RV6A
    "The world is changed by your example, not by your opinion" Paulo Coelho
    http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html




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  18. #448
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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Usually overweight causes an aft CG problem. So might need ballast weight as well.

  19. #449
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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by rv6ejguy View Post
    Well they weighed the Raptor today and it's over 600 pounds heavier than the projected weight on the website...
    I had to hunt up the website: http://www.raptor-aircraft.com/specs.html

    When I looked, it indeed said that the expected empty weight was 2300 lbs.

    As Ross points out, that specs page is heavily oriented towards a favorable comparison with the Cirrus SR22. Setting the mass disparity aside, it seems pretty ambitious to expect their 62" wide cabin to pass through the air almost as efficiently as the Cirrus's 49" wide cabin. That would take quite the reduction in Cd.
    Bob Kuykendall
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  21. #450
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    Re: Raptor Composite Aircraft

    Yes, he mentioned that too, he is planning on a bigger heavier battery in the nose for CG reasons.
    Not really surprised at the obesity, they've been adding material and using excessively heavy parts throughout (like a diesel engine!).

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