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Thread: P-51 Mustang Restoration Pictures

  1. #16
    AVI
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    Re: P-51 Mustang Restoration Pictures

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kay View Post
    AVI;

    First, I have to thank you for showing me the Bentley webpage. This guy can draw! I would take his drawings, scale them to be exactly 37 foot wingspan, and 32' 3" length for the fuselage, and use that as my outside shape of a Mustang. Of course, it would be scaled down to 70 or 75%, and altered from there if needed. Great website. I await his reply about cost for the D and K model Mustang drawings.

    One small advantage I have, is that I am always looking for a way to kill an hour at lunch time at my workplace. I also have access to mills, lathes, and some wood-working equipment, and in a few weeks, I could knock off a set of hammer-formed wing ribs or fuse frames. It all takes time, but add those many lunch hours together, and they add up. We also have a big air riveter and at least a few clecos hanging around. The hell with work !

    So again, we'll see if this goes anywhere. The overall cost is still high, and that's always a concern.

    Tom.

    Thnaks again, Tom.
    Great. Alfred's plans are truly superb. Not only is he a great artist/draftsman, he thoroughly researches his subjects. Have you seen his FW190 drawings? They are absolutely amazing! The construction detail is stunning!

    Also, now that I know the wonderful playground you have for a lunch room, I'll know where to go for my landing gear! -

    My personal opinion is that fiberglass/carbon fiber would be the faster and less expensive way to go. If you're going to build a one-off, you won't even need a plug and molds. The cost could be spread out over a number of years, the more expensive items being the powerplant, landing gear and instruments. If you've got access to a machine shop, the landing gear is no longer an expensive part of the build.

    The Bentley drawings will give you a good start, but you're still going to need a lot more P-51 technical information including as many factory drawings as you are able to source. The outline or shape of the aircraft is only a beginning. There is a myriad of details, and I'm afraid that the more you research the P-51 and the more knowledgeable and familiar you become with the aircraft, the more you'll realize how little you actually know.

    One advantage you have is that factory drawings are available. I've had to develop my own working drawings from maintenance manuals, photographs, and measurements I've taken myself. It's a lot like playing Columbo. (remember him?)
    Iceman

  2. #17
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    Re: P-51 Mustang Restoration Pictures

    Yes, I remember Ca-Bumble as I used to call him. There's always just one more thing to ask. "er, just one more thing, sir..."

    And speaking of clumsy, I recall some of my earlier spar attempts that I posted on the other website and a variety of feedback, including yours. Good feedback, and typically realistic. But I'd like to progress a bit and put the "cast iron, unbreakable" concept behind me, at least in terms of airframe structure. In other words, I've done a lot of studying of spars, and I'm getting a better idea of what's acceptable. Thin sheet metal is not a bad thing, if it's designed and used right. My learning is by no means complete.

    I work with carbon fiber in my research tasks, and although the whole world accepts it, I don't fully, especially the resin systems. I see all kinds of unexpected failures, wild data scatter, and human errors, including my own, when it comes to bonding and surface prep. This is one area at work where I really consider myself at the entry-level of education, even though I've been part of our composites group for around 4 years. Bottom line is that I just don't like carbon fiber. As strange as this comment may sound, it has no soul or "nostalgia" for me, and parts are not made in a way that I would enjoy in a homebuilt. Resin Transfer Molding, pre-preg hand layup, wet layup, all disinterest me. I could see doing wing tips, wheel pants, fairings etc, in composite, but I want the lion's share to be metal. As you may recall, I was willing to go the wood route with the Spit replica, but now I'm back to metal if I ever do a scale fighter. I know that's a big IF. Not stressed skin all over, necessarily, but metal skin facade, similar to the Titan fuselage, although I'd bet the wings are stressed. Little bit of math required there!

    If I can't do it this way, I'm willing to skip it for this life time, and wait til the next. (when oil's a thousand dollars a sniff.) I've always loved working metal, and although I tolerate carbon dust at work, it holds no appeal for me as a hobby, nor will it ever. Wood is somewhere in the middle, and I appreciate the flexible and forgiving nature of wood when building with it.

    Yes, the more I dive into any design, including the P-51, the more I realize that I have the same knowledge vacuum as any other rookie. But it's a fun dive, isn't it? Somewhat related, Bentley's FW-190 drawings are stunning. Best I've ever seen. His Spitfire composite drawing, of several fuselage models is actually headache-inducing, although I'm sure he has them separated too. I don't think he has that many drawings of the Mustang, but this can be augmented through other sources like Ebay, or the other Toronto guy you mentioned. That pile of 16,000 images would help fill in lots of blanks.

    Gotta go, Tom.

  3. #18
    AVI
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    Re: P-51 Mustang Restoration Pictures

    Hey, Tom, when it comes to glass and carbon, ya gotta do whatcha gotta do!

    You want to build in metal?

    Did you know that all the factory drawings for the P-51 are available from the Air & Space Museum? The Smithsonian? Maybe pricey ... but they're there. All of them.

    Free advice being worth what you paid, if you're going to build in aluminum, wouldn't it be really handy to have the factory drawings?
    Why reinvent the wheel?
    Iceman

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    Re: P-51 Mustang Restoration Pictures

    It would certainly be handy to have the factory drawings to get the shape correct. Everything would be scaled down to whatever size is finally decided upon.

    I don't want to make every wing rib, every fuselage frame. I'd like to simplify the airframe, yet keep it scale enough to look right. This might mean a tube fuse frame with metal skin, and fewer wing ribs than the original. Tough to say how to do it all at this point. As far as I am concerned, Titan has done a nice job, but with some concessions. If you look at the fuselage, it doesn't look like stressed skin, simply because it's wrinkled. You wouldn't expect load-carrying skin to be like that.

    Because of the different approach to making the airframe, some of the wheel would have to be reinvented.

    Tom.

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    Re: P-51 Mustang Restoration Pictures

    Have you seen this?


    Fighterwerks Inc.
    Iceman

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    Re: P-51 Mustang Restoration Pictures

    Tom
    Here is a side view of the Thunder Mustang. (tailwheel assembly pic 2)
    Have you seen this thread? http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/fo...html#post17609

    Btw I've heard (video) that the Thunder Mustang was designed by M.Hollman? Does anyone can confirm or deny it?



    Seb
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails P-51 Mustang Restoration Pictures-thunder-mustang.jpg   P-51 Mustang Restoration Pictures-tailwhhel.jpg  
    Last edited by Mac790; April 14th, 2009 at 08:26 AM.
    Amor Patriae Nostra Lex

    "Time, training, training, training and more training is the key to any success."
    Francis "Gabby" Gabreski

  7. #22
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    Re: P-51 Mustang Restoration Pictures

    EDIT: Mac790, i think you are correct.

    The Suzuki 2.7 is a monster engine for the T-51. and its the best powerplant for the T-51. It will bring the T-51 to its vNE speed easily when compared to the Rotax 912.

    You couldn't get a LS engine in a T-51 even if you tried, however i can't say that with 100% certainly because i wanted to stick a V-10 in a S-51.

    Also ide trust a Suzuki engine to run those RPM's better then the LS engines.

    What do you do for a job that gives you access to all of that stuff? im working my way into a Model scale railroad club that is working on acquiring a manchine shop.

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    Re: P-51 Mustang Restoration Pictures

    AVI;

    Nope, hadn't seen the Fighterwerks site. Hope it all goes well, and they make some wings. It would be good to see them.

    Mac790, I hadn't seen that either. Thanks. Nice machine, the Thunder. A little too perfect, with no rivets or creases, but hey, I'm being way too picky aren't I?

    Pepsi, the two guys that I talked to really like the 2.7 in the Titan. Wish I could check it out.

    I work at Canada's government research facility, in the Aerospace Institute. My bag is composites and "novel" airframe materials, a newly formed group. One of the more novel things I've done is to try and create locust wings to mimick the real items. So I do a fair bit of design, and then I get off my butt and go to the little machine shop and make stuff. My job is sort of rare in that sense, because most guys design/draw, with a few machinists to take over from there. I do both, but not large items. Just the small, annoying items that the other guys might not want to do. No cnc work yet, but that would be terrific if it ever happened.

    Tom.

  9. #24
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    Re: P-51 Mustang Restoration Pictures

    you have it made, you could literally get away with building a full sized airplane, and a P-51 out of wood with a carbon fiber composite skin over it would really take the field. Now of course the added weight of a wood frame with a carbon fiber skin, would be overcome by a super charged 1,200+Hp powerplant. then you would have a true killer airplane, but that is IMO of course.

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    Re: P-51 Mustang Restoration Pictures

    Hi Pepsi;

    Yup, sounds like a great thing, but I have to assess my own abilities as a pilot, and what those abilities are likely to be after getting back into flying for a few years. Truthfully, I'm not fighter pilot-worthy and a high-powered a/c will just get me into trouble.

    Don't think I haven't considered it, because I sure have. Can you imagine zipping through the air at high speeds, pulling whatever manouvre you want? But that's not where my skill set is.

    I think a Titan-like Mustang would offer entry-level performance for takeoffs and landings, and decent cruise performance to go cross country. But it would never be a hot rod. Call it a low-to-medium performer. Realistic for me.

    It takes a bit of soul-searching honest to admit this, and it will take even more yet to admit that the Titan is probably out of my financial reach. That is, unless I can successfully simplify the design and build, and do it from scratch, and not the Titan kit.

    However, I DON'T want you to accept anything like reality yet, Pepsi. I'd like to see your Merlin up and running, and then THAT will become the new reality.

    Cheers, Tom.

  11. #26
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    Re: P-51 Mustang Restoration Pictures

    I can imagine it, with time that is.

    I think this one would be cheaper then using carbon fiber, since fiberglass is easy to come by.

    I would say it shouldn't be to hard to build a wood P-51 to 3/4 scale. I would build the airframe out of balsa or birch wood. On the frame i would add 1/4 inch birch plywood or maybe 1/8inch balsa wood sheets? The a simple roll of fiberglass and a layer of epoxy to secure it to the frame. add another layer in a checkered pattern and then have it jelcoated.

    I would set it up so you would have a fiberglass tank in the wings one on each side, maybe 20 galls each side should work.

    Then i would purchase the Suzuki 2.7L and stick it in the engine compartment, if i was you that is.

    Should be cheaper then the 100K that Titian will quote you. Heck i would say that airplane if you have a true laminar flow wing would have a higher vNE speed then the T-51,a nd if he frame is built right a big block with a deep skirt and long rods would make a great powerplant, something like the V-8 i have partially sketched out (before it was scrapped for the V-10 that is)

  12. #27
    AVI
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    Re: P-51 Mustang Restoration Pictures

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kay View Post
    Hi Pepsi;
    It takes a bit of soul-searching honest to admit this, and it will take even more yet to admit that the Titan is probably out of my financial reach. That is, unless I can successfully simplify the design and build, and do it from scratch, and not the Titan kit.
    Cheers, Tom.
    Tom: If you haven't done it already, why don't you smash your credit card and order the Marcel Jurca plans? MJ-77 P-51 $850 from: http://www.legendofaces.com/Aviation...ple%20Plan.PDF All the work has already been done for you. Even if you don't build from the plans, the educational value alone is worth the eight hundred bucks. Hey, Jake, shouldn't this thread be moved to Replicas?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails P-51 Mustang Restoration Pictures-jurca.jpg  
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    Re: P-51 Mustang Restoration Pictures

    Quote Originally Posted by AVI View Post
    Hey, Tom, when it comes to glass and carbon, ya gotta do whatcha gotta do!

    You want to build in metal?

    Did you know that all the factory drawings for the P-51 are available from the Air & Space Museum? The Smithsonian? Maybe pricey ... but they're there. All of them.

    Free advice being worth what you paid, if you're going to build in aluminum, wouldn't it be really handy to have the factory drawings?
    Why reinvent the wheel?
    AVI: do you know who i can contact to get full scale plans for the P-51 at the Air and Space Museum, and or the Smithsonian?

  14. #29
    AVI
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    Re: P-51 Mustang Factory Drawings

    Quote Originally Posted by pepsi71ocean View Post
    AVI: do you know who i can contact to get full scale plans for the P-51 at the Air and Space Museum, and or the Smithsonian?
    Hey, Pepsi guy,
    No, but you might try their website or call the archives section. My understanding is that they have all the P-51 (among other WW2 aircraft) factory drawings on microfilm but that they are also rather pricey.
    Max in Toronto, on his AR website, the guy who sells factory manuals, also has P-51 drawings for sale but he states that the set is not complete. About ninety-eight bucks.
    Claus Colling at Flugwerk in Germany, the full-size FW190 guy, also had DVDs with digitized P-51 drawings for sale, but an Email from him this morning stated that he no longer sells them. He says that Peter Ewbanks in NZ (of Ebay fame/infame ) sells his P-51 drawings "with his blessings."
    Max in Toronto also told me that he supplies Ewbanks with drawings.
    FWIW, my take on it is that it would be less expensive ordering the disks from Ewbanks and Max (AR) than from the Smithsonian. We're talking a couple of hundred bucks here compared to the few thousand dollars that the Smithsonian apparently charges. Now, the Smithsonian prices may be a lot lower these days, but it's worth sending an email or calling the Smithsonian archives.
    Another place I'd try is the AF Museum in Dayton. They might have the drawings too.
    If you do order the DVDs, I'd like to know whether all the drawings for the P-51H are included. If anybody does know, please let me know.
    Iceman

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    Re: P-51 Mustang Restoration Pictures

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kay View Post
    AVI;

    Thanks, and good to know. I mostly want a fairly accurate look at the overall shape of the P-51D, not so much every fuse frame and rib.
    Thanks, Tom.

    Tom:

    Another lead: A Brit publication, Scale Models - March 1972 edition carried terrific scale drawings of the P-51B, C, and D by AAP Lloyd.
    These are really accurate drawings and may still be available. The plan pack was #2766 and available in various scales, up to 1:24.

    North American Aviation (remember those folks?) also prepared scale drawings of the P-51H in March 1953 and the P-51D in December, 1962. These were available through their public relations office for the asking.
    Iceman

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