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Thread: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

  1. #46
    Registered User bmcj's Avatar
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    Re: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
    There is no reg that specifically prohibits giving free rides but the relationship between pilot and passengers is part of the equation. Free rides to family, friends and others (within limits) is fine. When the pilot starts offering free rides to the general public, there are indeed regs about transporting those persons and it doesn't matter if a specific charge for the flight is made or not.

    When a pilot offers to transport persons (general public) in his own plane the question becomes: "Does this flight require an operator or operating certificate under FAR 119? Or, is it specifically excluded?"
    We've dealt with the same issue. We volunteered our time and planes to the County Sheriff's Department for Flight Search and Rescue missions, as well as providing occasional transport missions for deputies and (maybe) prisoners. The transportation portion got shut down by the FAA because they considered it an Air Taxi operation, and even though it was unpaid, they can interpret anything that might bolster your reputation as payment. We can provide our service for SAR, and we can even carry a deputy during the search, but we cannot drop the deputy off anywhere but our original departure point. It seems that the two defining issues that move it into the Air Taxi category are "service on demand" and transport and disembarkment of an individual or equipment to a location other than the original point of departure.

    Now, I can understand and appreciate that any flight that can be done by a commercial operation (airline, air taxi, etc) should be protected by the FAA to prevent loss of revenue, but the policy alternative for the flights we did was a long ride in a patrol car, which was a greater cost to the tax payer and it took a patrol car out of service for an extended amount of time. In the eyes of the FAA, it didn't matter though, because their charter is to safeguard and protect commercial operations.

  2. #47
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    Re: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

    Quote Originally Posted by D Hillberg View Post
    and every one is issued limitations for each and every one and unless it's issued a special purpose certificate for a specific job good luck with your FSDO.
    Actually, there is an FAR that says:

    § 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.
    (a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate—
    (1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued;


    However, FAA legal has interpreted that "purpose" under 21.191 (g), is very broad and allows for activity that to some might seem to be outside that purpose. For example, in the Josephson interpretation, they said an E-A/B aircraft can be used to conduct an aerial mapping survey.

    Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire muddies the water because compensation also has a broad definition. For example, if the operator receives any benefit from the above aerial mapping survey, the operation would become illegal.

    Sometimes alleged FAA violations are dismissed or substantiated once an investigation is completed and all the facts are in. Each case is different and relying on luck is usually not a good strategy.
    “The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible.” - Mark Twain

    “If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$hi+.” ― W.C. Fields

  3. #48
    Registered User BBerson's Avatar
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    Re: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
    I don't think I said anything about limits on number of free rides.
    What I meant was depending on who is being offered a ride, there may be limits on what kind of ride can be offered. Again, the question is: "Do any additional rules apply to this specific flight?"




    Obviously there is no black and white rule which is why ever since non-emergency, volunteer humanitarian flights started, FAA and lawyers have argued back and forth over what is permitted and what isn't. The easiest solution is to operate under the banner of an organization that does volunteer humanitarian flights because interpretation of the rules is constantly evolving and organizations have the latest interpretations, rulings and decisions on their side. If one doesn't want to do that they are assuming the associated risk ranging from FAA enforcement to personal financial loss in the event of a mishap. I think one should exercise due diligence before making that choice.
    You said there may be limits. Sounds sort of like just assume it is prohibited because someone argued it should be.
    If there is no black and white rule then there is no rule. Arguments and opinions don't count. If you ask the FAA they probably will say no. The point is don't ask about unclear foolish rules in your day to day activity.
    I am amazed how some interpret rules that don't exist. Last week at the RC field a member asked me to help ban another member that flew a low pass in his "ultralight". He said the pilot was well below the required 1000 feet and he was annoyed the pilot was in the RC field "airspace". I told him the 1000 feet rule was for congested airspace, not the 1/2 mile farm we were on where 500 feet from persons or structure is required for airplanes. An ultralight has no restrictions for distance.
    But he said he would call the FAA anyway to get the RC field listed on the " chart" to keep pilots away.

  4. #49
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    Re: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

    Quote Originally Posted by BBerson View Post
    I told him the 1000 feet rule was for congested airspace,
    That's an interesting example you use. Is there a published black and white definition for "congested airspace?"

    No, there is not. Any violation using "congested airspace" (as well as "densely populated" and "open air assembly of people") is determined on a case-by-case basis, using arguments and opinions. The RC club member may have been correct because someone was interpreting something that does not exist.
    “The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible.” - Mark Twain

    “If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$hi+.” ― W.C. Fields

  5. #50
    Moderator Dana's Avatar
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    Re: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
    Actually, there is an FAR that says:

    § 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.
    (a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate—
    (1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued;

    However, FAA legal has interpreted that "purpose" under 21.191 (g)...
    And according to 21.191g (and my operation limations), that purpose is... "operating amateur built aircraft." Bit of circular logic here?

    Dana
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    Registered User PTAirco's Avatar
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    Re: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post



    For example, if the operator receives any benefit from the above aerial mapping survey, the operation would become illegal.
    So if you enjoy the flight, that is an obvious benefit for you and you'll be illegal. Make sure you tell the FAA you hated every minute of it.
    "Aeronautical engineering is highly educated guessing, worked out to five decimal places. Fred Lindsley, Airspeed."

  7. #52
    Registered User BBerson's Avatar
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    Re: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
    That's an interesting example you use. Is there a published black and white definition for "congested airspace?"

    No, there is not. Any violation using "congested airspace" (as well as "densely populated" and "open air assembly of people") is determined on a case-by-case basis, using arguments and opinions. The RC club member may have been correct because someone was interpreting something that does not exist.
    My point was if it isn't clearly banned then we have the right to do it. I am surprised that a retired airline pilot even feels the need to ask such a question as he did here. And surprised that members say he can't because the rules are fuzzy and apparently anything can be construed to be a violation. Sad state.
    Of course, I understand that a current airline pilot will not want to get too near a rule and so be extra cautious.
    But he is retired and may not care what absurd FAA action might happen.

    note, my comment before about "congested airspace" was incorrect. Should have said " congested area".

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