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Thread: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

  1. #31
    Registered User BBerson's Avatar
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    Re: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
    From Angel Flight FAQ's

    Are experimental planes permitted to fly Angel Flight missions?

    No, the plane must be certified by the FAA under a Standard Airworthiness Certificate.



    It's not the organization, it's a regulatory thing.
    What regulation prohibits free rides?

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  3. #32
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    Re: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
    From Angel Flight FAQ's

    Are experimental planes permitted to fly Angel Flight missions?

    No, the plane must be certified by the FAA under a Standard Airworthiness Certificate.



    It's not the organization, it's a regulatory thing.
    Perhaps, but it's also likely a way to minimize liability exposure: use of a certified aircraft could be used as evidence of due diligence if that Angel Flight crashes into a full football stadium.

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    Registered User D Hillberg's Avatar
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    Re: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

    Experimentals are built and flown for education and recreation, A Angel Flight is a mission not recreation- protection of nonparticipating public ie: a half dead passenger.


    A certificated aircraft is required. (public service is a different story)

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    Registered User BBerson's Avatar
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    Re: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

    Quote Originally Posted by D Hillberg View Post
    Experimentals are built and flown for education and recreation, A Angel Flight is a mission not recreation- protection of nonparticipating public ie: a half dead passenger.


    A certificated aircraft is required. (public service is a different story)
    The FAR 21 says construction for education or recreation. Doesn't mention how it is flown:

    (g) Operating amateur-built aircraft. Operating an aircraft the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation.

    Nor is he raising funds for a charitable organization:


    §91.146 Passenger-carrying flights for the benefit of a charitable, nonprofit, or community event.
    (a) Definitions. For purposes of this section, the following definitions apply:

    Charitable event means an event that raises funds for the benefit of a charitable organization recognized by the Department of the Treasury whose donors may deduct contributions under section 170 of the Internal Revenue Code (26 U.S.C. Section 170).

    Community event means an event that raises funds for the benefit of any local or community cause that is not a charitable event or non-profit event.

    Non-profit event means an event that raises funds for the benefit of a non-profit organization recognized under State or Federal law, as long as one of the organization's purposes is the promotion of aviation safety.
    Last edited by BBerson; May 19th, 2016 at 09:05 PM.

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    Registered User D Hillberg's Avatar
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    Re: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

    Quote Originally Posted by BBerson View Post
    The FAR 21 says construction for education or recreation. Doesn't mention how it is flown:

    (g) Operating amateur-built aircraft. Operating an aircraft the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation.
    and every one is issued limitations for each and every one and unless it's issued a special purpose certificate for a specific job good luck with your FSDO.

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    Registered User radfordc's Avatar
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    Re: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
    From Angel Flight FAQ's

    Are experimental planes permitted to fly Angel Flight missions?

    No, the plane must be certified by the FAA under a Standard Airworthiness Certificate.



    It's not the organization, it's a regulatory thing.
    No, it's the organization's rule. To fly under their "banner" you have to follow their rules.

    If flying people for free was against reg's you wouldn't be able to do Young Eagle flights in an experimental, either. And of course you can.

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    Re: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

    Quote Originally Posted by BBerson View Post
    What regulation prohibits free rides?
    There is no reg that specifically prohibits giving free rides but the relationship between pilot and passengers is part of the equation. Free rides to family, friends and others (within limits) is fine. When the pilot starts offering free rides to the general public, there are indeed regs about transporting those persons and it doesn't matter if a specific charge for the flight is made or not.

    When a pilot offers to transport persons (general public) in his own plane the question becomes: "Does this flight require an operator or operating certificate under FAR 119? Or, is it specifically excluded?"
    “The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible.” - Mark Twain

    “If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$hi+.” ― W.C. Fields

  10. #38
    Registered User BBerson's Avatar
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    Re: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
    There is no reg that specifically prohibits giving free rides but the relationship between pilot and passengers is part of the equation. Free rides to family, friends and others (within limits) is fine. When the pilot starts offering free rides to the general public, there are indeed regs about transporting those persons and it doesn't matter if a specific charge for the flight is made or not.

    When a pilot offers to transport persons (general public) in his own plane the question becomes: "Does this flight require an operator or operating certificate under FAR 119? Or, is it specifically excluded?"
    I read through FAR 119 and found nothing about "limits" on number of free rides or any mention of free rides because
    FAR 119 applies to commercial operations.
    So where is the rule?

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    Registered User PTAirco's Avatar
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    Re: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
    There is no reg that specifically prohibits giving free rides but the relationship between pilot and passengers is part of the equation. Free rides to family, friends and others (within limits) is fine. When the pilot starts offering free rides to the general public, there are indeed regs about transporting those persons and it doesn't matter if a specific charge for the flight is made or not.

    When a pilot offers to transport persons (general public) in his own plane the question becomes: "Does this flight require an operator or operating certificate under FAR 119? Or, is it specifically excluded?"
    Can you quote some FARs on that?
    "Aeronautical engineering is highly educated guessing, worked out to five decimal places. Fred Lindsley, Airspeed."

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    Registered User D Hillberg's Avatar
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    Re: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

    Now it went from Angel Flight to free flights....

  13. #41
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    Re: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

    Quote Originally Posted by D Hillberg View Post
    Now it went from Angel Flight to free flights....
    No, this recent conversation started with free and was not about Angel Flight. See post #22

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    Registered User D Hillberg's Avatar
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    Re: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

    Quote Originally Posted by BBerson View Post
    No, this recent conversation started with free and was not about Angel Flight. See post #22
    IT WENT FROM REGULATIONS TO FREE, see post #3 ,9 Why am I yelling? I'll excuse myself....

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    Re: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

    Quote Originally Posted by BBerson View Post
    I read through FAR 119 and found nothing about "limits" on number of free rides or any mention of free rides because
    FAR 119 applies to commercial operations.
    I don't think I said anything about limits on number of free rides.
    What I meant was depending on who is being offered a ride, there may be limits on what kind of ride can be offered. Again, the question is: "Do any additional rules apply to this specific flight?"


    So where is the rule?
    Obviously there is no black and white rule which is why ever since non-emergency, volunteer humanitarian flights started, FAA and lawyers have argued back and forth over what is permitted and what isn't. The easiest solution is to operate under the banner of an organization that does volunteer humanitarian flights because interpretation of the rules is constantly evolving and organizations have the latest interpretations, rulings and decisions on their side. If one doesn't want to do that they are assuming the associated risk ranging from FAA enforcement to personal financial loss in the event of a mishap. I think one should exercise due diligence before making that choice.
    “The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible.” - Mark Twain

    “If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$hi+.” ― W.C. Fields

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    Re: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

    Quote Originally Posted by D Hillberg View Post
    Why am I yelling?
    I dunno. I thought it was a valid segue of the discussion.
    “The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible.” - Mark Twain

    “If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$hi+.” ― W.C. Fields

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    Re: Regulations - Aircraft Certification

    Quote Originally Posted by Swampyankee View Post
    Perhaps, but it's also likely a way to minimize liability exposure: use of a certified aircraft could be used as evidence of due diligence if that Angel Flight crashes into a full football stadium.
    Would that not be a generic airspace violation on the part of the pilot? RE: Sporting event TFR?
    “The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible.” - Mark Twain

    “If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$hi+.” ― W.C. Fields

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