Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 26 of 26

Thread: Tube & Fabric Wing Airfoils?

  1. #16
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    AMES, IA USA
    Posts
    1,403
    Likes (Given)
    26
    Likes (Received)
    89

    Re: Tube & Fabric Wing Airfoils?

    Quote Originally Posted by pictsidhe View Post
    standard are 15x6 tyres. You could save a few lb going to harbor fright 13" wheels, which are 4lb each and should be adequate. I'll weigh a mower 15x6 next chance I get.
    ================================================== ======

    Yes, many of these older Planes could be put on a Diet with new materials/parts out today! I bought one of them light weight lithium Batterys to try in my Sled, 2.1lbs, turns my Vmax 600 over much better than the old battery ever did. I forgot to weigh the old Bad Battery, but was about 11-12lbs. 240CCA works great!

  2. #17
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    AMES, IA USA
    Posts
    1,403
    Likes (Given)
    26
    Likes (Received)
    89

    Re: Tube & Fabric Wing Airfoils?

    Yes, many of these older Planes could be put on a Diet with new materials/parts out today! I bought one of them light weight lithium Batterys to try in my Sled, 2.1lbs, turns my Vmax 600 over much better than the old battery ever did. I forgot to weigh the old Bad Battery, but was about 11-12lbs. 240CCA works great!

  3. #18
    Registered User TJay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Maurice IA
    Posts
    175
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    108

    Re: Tube & Fabric Wing Airfoils?

    Avids and early Kitfox used a Eppler Airfoil you may want to consider that as an option, Very good for low hp operation,

  4. #19
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    779
    Likes (Given)
    312
    Likes (Received)
    155

    Re: Tube & Fabric Wing Airfoils?

    I've tuned a few engines over the years. So, yes, I know its very possible to double the output of an engine, but it won't last long. The manufacturers know how to get more power from their engines. There are good reasons for them not to. I've yet to see convincing evidence on the wonder coatings.

  5. #20
    Registered User blane.c's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    capital district NY
    Posts
    879
    Likes (Given)
    394
    Likes (Received)
    189

    Re: Tube & Fabric Wing Airfoils?

    Quote Originally Posted by Armilite View Post
    Thanks for the Answers! I can build about any engine to make what ever HP I need, but this Wing Airfoil stuff, has me lost! I can build a Wing to any plans Spec's, I just need the Spec's of what's best to use. The only way to put a T-Bird I into Part 103 status is to use a Single Cylinder Engine and put the Airframe on a small diet. Whereas the Simonini 44hp to 54hp Singles is the most logical choice to use today, their are very Exspensive!

    I do have a few 277's, Stock (26hp at 6250rpms) and if I do all the Standard Race Mods to it, I can get maybe 41hp out of it at 6500rpms. If I Big Bore it also to (82mm x 66mm) 348.6cc, I could get even more HP out of it, maybe see 53hp at 6500rpms. My main goal would be to have a good Stall Speed with a Good lift for Max Weight! I can always detuned the engine. I figure 82mm is the largest it can be over bored, I do have the option to also Stroke it to Max (82mm x 70mm) 369.8cc for 56hp at 6500rpms, but I don't think it's worth the trouble and extra exspense for just 3hp.

    With the Stock T-Bird I Wing and Empty Weight with a 447UL = 280lbs! The 377UL(35hp) was a Single Ignition and a little lighter but not by much, maybe 5 lbs. Subtracting off the 447UL Engine Weight and adding on the 277 weght, it just makes the 254lbs. I think these Useful Load Numbers they give are very conservative, the Phieniox 103 is a knock off of the T-bird I, using lighter weight .058 Wall Tubing with a Hirth 50hp which has a useful load of 396lbs.

    They say today with:
    447(40hp) = 300lb useful load!
    503(50hp) = 315lb useful load!
    582(65hp) = 350lb useful load!

    I know they put the 618UL(73.8hp) and Wankels(75hp) and some Subaru's on these T-Bird I's.
    http://www.austars-model.com/dle-430...er_g16419.html

    https://doublezen.en.alibaba.com/pro...367.0.0.vV6f5I

  6. #21
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    779
    Likes (Given)
    312
    Likes (Received)
    155

    Re: Tube & Fabric Wing Airfoils?

    Have a read of the true ultralights thread. Its going to be much easier to start with a design that is already legal than try and cut nearly 30lbs off one that isn't.

  7. #22
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    AMES, IA USA
    Posts
    1,403
    Likes (Given)
    26
    Likes (Received)
    89

    Re: Tube & Fabric Wing Airfoils?

    Quote Originally Posted by pictsidhe View Post
    Have a read of the true ultralights thread. Its going to be much easier to start with a design that is already legal than try and cut nearly 30lbs off one that isn't.
    ================================================== =

    Empty Weight with a 447UL was 280lbs per Indys Spec's, take off that 447UL Engine Weight, and then add on weight of a 277F or a lighter Simonini (44hp, 48hp, 54hp) and it makes 254lbs with either Brand of Single Cylinder Engine. Swap Wheels like was said and save a little more weight. Every Plane has some Fat it can loose! I haven't found the Weight's of the Free Air 277 Engine vs the 277 Fan Cooled, but they are even lighter. Just like a Kawasaki 440 is 7lbs lighter than a Rotax 503.

    Companies, Build Engines to fit into HP Catagories, not to make you and me happy! Look at the Simonini Single Engine, theres a good example, it's offered in 44hp, 48hp, 54hp, same base Engine they just swith bore and strokes around for a different CC, of course all at a higher Price! That's Why you had a Chevy/Ford/Dodge/etc. Engines in mulitple HP Ranges! Just because one Chevy 350 V8 made 165hp in a station wagon and another made 350hp in a Camaro, didn't make them unreliable! That same logic goes for Sled/Ultralight/Boat/Airplane/Bike Engines. The 277(26hp at 6250rpms) use's the same (72mm Piston, Rod, Bearings) as a 503(50hp at 6500rpms). You haven't Tuned many Engines if you don't relized that! Those same (72mm Pistons) are used in other 500/521cc Water Cooled Engines making 90+hp and turning higher 7750rpms which is considered Stock rpms for these engines!

    Engines, become unreliable when Humans enter the Picture, they use Bad Gas, Low Octane Gas for their given CR, they use cheap OIL, or run their engine low on Oil, forget to premix Oil, they don't do regular Maintenace, they Assemble them wrong, etc!

    Every Nascar Engine and Drag Race Engine making anywhere from 700hp to 8000+hp use's them Coatings, but you know better! All of them Race Teams spending $1000's of Dollars on R&D to make more HP, and to make their Engine last longer, just continue to waste their Money!

  8. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    AMES, IA USA
    Posts
    1,403
    Likes (Given)
    26
    Likes (Received)
    89

    Re: Tube & Fabric Wing Airfoils?

    Blane those are some nice engines, but with a nice Price also. Yes, I can afford them, if I wasn't a Cheap B#####, I would probably buy the Simoini 54hp for around $6500. I think it's the best Single out on the market right now. But I would rather put my money else where.

    My goal is to make a cheap 50hp Single at 6500rpms from a Skidoo/Rotax Single and have it Dynoed. Then share what I all done to do it. Many Ultralight people can't afford or know how to build Engines. This isn't rocket science! I already have a couple 277's, one with a Gear Drive I traded for, and only have $250 in it. I got parts to build a 2nd 277, I have about $125 in them. Average cost of a used 277 with Gear Drive is $600. If you build it like 1/2 a 670(78mm x 70mm) you can use many 670 Parts.

    277(With Gear Drive, CDI) $250
    HD 70mm Custom Single Crank(I bought a 670 Core Crank $60) to get the PTO/MAG ends.
    670 82mm Big Bore Piston $100.
    670HO Rod use's Bigger Top Bearing $65.
    82mm Blank Cylinder Sleeve $40 off ebay.
    Dual Plug Head a little Bigger than 277 Head $40 off ebay
    To have someone Bore 277 Cylinder and Install 82mm Sleeve and match all the Ports about $250. I have a 12' x 37" Lathe, but I don't have a Fixture made yet to do my own Cylinder Boring yet.
    Gaskets and Bearings($150)
    Ectrons Fuel Injection was ($400) for up to 400cc. I think if you bought one setup, you could duplicate it cheaper. Or use other Fuel Injection parts to maybe save money. Most 2000+ Sleds/Jet Skies use Fuel Injection. (1) Throtle Body off a Twin would work for any Single as long as it has the TPS on it. There are different Brands of TPS, so you have to make sure it works with Ectrons Software. Used off ebay $40-$120.

    If you use the Same Basic Spec's(Bore/Stroke/Rod Lenght) as a 670/2 = 334.5cc you can use a modifed 670 Tuned Pipe or still make your own. Finding and Modifying the Tuned Pipe to fit your application is the bigest hurdle to over come. CustomTuned Pipes range $400 to $650.

    My goal is 50hp at Max 6500rpms, hopefully even lower rpms, and do it for less than $1500. Most People can afford that. 277's are getting in short suppy with all the Go Kart guys buying them up, but you can apply this to almost any Old Single made.

    A 277 PTO Case Half fits on old Skidoo Single Case's also, the Deck is higher on the 277 Case is all. I'm looking into maybe making a Billet 277 PTO Case Half with Provison 8 Added to it, then you could also use it with any old Skidoo Single rear case half.

    The 1971 Skidoo Blizzard Singles were the higher HP Single engines, 246cc(29hp), 292(31hp), 340(36hp). The 277 was never put in a Blizzard.

    277 PTO Case with Studs on Skidoo 335 Case!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	277 335 TOP VIEW 1.JPG 
Views:	7 
Size:	32.3 KB 
ID:	60064   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	335 CASE BACK VIEW.JPG 
Views:	7 
Size:	37.0 KB 
ID:	60067   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	277 PTO CASE MATED TO 335 BACK CASE 2.JPG 
Views:	7 
Size:	29.6 KB 
ID:	60065  

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	335 CASE LEFT 277 CASE PTO VIEWS.jpg 
Views:	8 
Size:	30.6 KB 
ID:	60066  

  9. #24
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    AMES, IA USA
    Posts
    1,403
    Likes (Given)
    26
    Likes (Received)
    89

    Re: Tube & Fabric Wing Airfoils?

    Reproduction Free Air Housing for Old Skidoo's. I think a GPL Starter could be Adapted in place of this Housing with just an Adapter plate.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	blizzardmaghousing001.jpg 
Views:	6 
Size:	62.7 KB 
ID:	60068   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	blizzardmaghousing002.jpg 
Views:	5 
Size:	62.8 KB 
ID:	60069  

  10. #25
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,515
    Likes (Given)
    9
    Likes (Received)
    116

    Re: Tube & Fabric Wing Airfoils?

    Quote Originally Posted by Armilite View Post
    ================================================== =================
    I did include Indys Wing Spec's in the very first post if you looked at the photo, those Spec's are off Indys web site.
    Oops. Sorry about that, I missed it somehow.
    My Goal is just to make 50hp at 6500rpms.

    Reducing Drag and Weight, I'm sure would help with using less HP also! Indys Numbers just don't Jive, I have been looking for old T-Bird I data with the other Engines.
    I still don't get why you need 50 hp in a part 103 ultralight. But maybe you told us that and I missed it.

    ------------
    BTW, looking back at your original post, the emphasis on low speed flight means that the airfoil requirements are almost the same. I suppose you can afford more drag with the bigger engine, though.

  11. #26
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    779
    Likes (Given)
    312
    Likes (Received)
    155

    Re: Tube & Fabric Wing Airfoils?

    If you take a 26hp air cooled engine and squeeze 50hp out of it. You WILL have cooling problems.
    How about 1/2 of a water cooled twin? Alternatively, a motorcross engine.
    I had a nice 30hp 125cc rotax nearly 30 years ago. A newer 250 mxer should fit your bill. Tuning is always a tradeoff. A 100% power boost on an air cooled engine is not going to be easy to keep together.

Similar Threads

  1. Project Expedition: A 3500-pound Metal Wing, Tube and Fabric Utility Plane
    By Chris In Marshfield in forum Member Project Logs
    Replies: 76
    Last Post: February 15th, 2017, 09:30 AM
  2. Tube and Fabric low wing similar to KR-2
    By Vector in forum Tube and Fabric
    Replies: 76
    Last Post: December 29th, 2016, 11:51 AM
  3. Squeezing fabric for rear part wing between C-spar and D-tube skin
    By nestofdragons in forum Tube and Fabric
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: November 17th, 2016, 10:28 PM
  4. tube and fabric low wing in plans
    By gazpachoazul in forum Tube and Fabric
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: May 23rd, 2014, 04:00 PM
  5. Detachable wing(square Al tube and fabric)
    By clanon in forum Tube and Fabric
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: November 21st, 2011, 05:44 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •