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Thread: PatRon Harmonically Reciprocating Piston Rotary Engine

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    Re: PatRon Harmonically Reciprocating Piston Rotary Engine

    Hello CheapRacer.

    You write:
    "Where are those 'other' Pat RoVa videos mentioned please?"


    Here is the folder with the original videos (Quick Time Movie format) taken May 28, 2014:



    Look at the time each one of them was recorded.


    The four videos, in their original format, have just been uploaded and can be downloaded from:

    http://www.pattakon.com/PatRoVa/Chea...a 002_GOOD.MOV

    http://www.pattakon.com/PatRoVa/Chea...a 007_GOOD.MOV

    http://www.pattakon.com/PatRoVa/Cheap/PatRoVa 008.MOV

    and

    http://www.pattakon.com/PatRoVa/Cheap/PatRoVa 009.MOV


    In the “007” video, the engine stops when the throttle closes by itself (the stopper that holds the throttle open falls)


    One of these videos was published in the youtube.


    It seems I had, for one more time, to prove I am not an elephant.

    Thanks
    Manolis Pattakos

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    Re: PatRon Harmonically Reciprocating Piston Rotary Engine

    Quote Originally Posted by manolis View Post
    It seems I had, for one more time, to prove I am not an elephant.

    I didn't invent this world, a few forum posts, a few 3D's and a few minutes running not maketh an engine, and that's the way it is.

    People have thrown squillions of dollars at OPOC, Archates, RevaTec, Split Cycle, Scuderi, Liquid Piston and others we both know of, why?

    One good reason is that they stick with one single concept only and see it through to the end, and if I was you I would be dropping the lot and concentrating on further developing the Pat RoVa as it is a genuine alternative, in theory.

    No one wants to start spending hundreds of millions to mass produce an entire new concept when right now the gasoline engine is on shaky ground long term. It sent Mazda broke in good times.

    Main research budgets are going into alternate fuels and electric cars right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by BoKu View Post
    The vast majority of engineering failures are the results of failure of imagination rather than failure of calculation.

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    Re: PatRon Harmonically Reciprocating Piston Rotary Engine

    Hello CheapRacer and thanks for the advise.


    EcoMotors : about 100 million dollars for their OPOC design (23.5 from Bill Gates of Microsoft).


    Achates Power: about 100 million dollars for their sided crankshaft Opposed Piston design (some dozens of millions from the founders of WalMart).


    mce-5 (France): 100 million Euros (say, nearly 110 million dollars) for their variable compression ratio engine (it was scheduled to get into mass production in 2016, the last update in their web site is from 2103!).


    Scuderi Split-Cycle: several dozens of millions lost by their investors.


    REVETEC, Australia: several millions of investors money lost.


    LiquidPiston is alive (they claim they have spend so far 18 million dollars (!), DARPA has invested on them, so far, 3.5 million dollars).


    Martin JetPack, New Zealand (some 50 millions from China invested a couple of years ago, they changed from their own 2-stroke engine to a Wankel rotary from the United Kingdom, last months they don’t appear too active).


    Etc, etc.



    With 100 million dollars per project, pattakon would need some 2 billions to proceed all its current projects.


    With only 100 millions, we should pick one only pattakon project and put all the effort on it.


    Without millions, the focussing makes more harm than good.



    You mentioned Revetec.

    A decade ago, Brad Howell Smith, the founder of Revetec, was advising me (ion a technical discussion forum) the same thing: “focus” on one project.

    In return, I advised him to concentrate on the real problem of his engine: the extreme loads on the linear contact between the track-roller-bearing and the periphery of the eccentric tri-lobe cam, instead of spending money on Cosworth cylinder heads for engines that could never operate at high revs.

    Neither listened to the other.

    Those who invested in Revetec lost their money.


    Fortunately we didn’t “focus”, which in the hindsight proved the right choice.


    Follow the VVA projects of pattakon.

    The one derived from the other.

    From the VVA rod (at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonRod.htm ) :



    it derived the VVA roller (at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonRoller.htm ) :



    and the rod-roller VVA (at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonRodRoller.htm ) ,

    and from the previous VVAs it derived the Desmodromic DVVA (at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonDesmo.htm ) :





    Similarly from the OPRE engine (at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonOPRE.htm ) :



    it derived initially the PatOP opposed piston engine:



    and later the OPRE_Tilting :



    and the Portable flyer:



    (at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatTol.htm ) which can change the world,

    and the blade valve (at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonBlade.htm )


    From all the previous it derived the PatRoVa rotary valve you seem to like the best:




    Thanks
    Manolis Pattakos
    Last edited by manolis; March 19th, 2017 at 03:59 AM.

  4. #124
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    Re: PatRon Harmonically Reciprocating Piston Rotary Engine

    Quote Originally Posted by manolis View Post

    From all the previous it derived the PatRoVa rotary valve you seem to like the best:
    Not a case of "which one I like", it's a case of real world practicabilitys and which one would stand a real chance of success.
    Quote Originally Posted by BoKu View Post
    The vast majority of engineering failures are the results of failure of imagination rather than failure of calculation.

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    Re: PatRon Harmonically Reciprocating Piston Rotary Engine

    I'm voting for the vva project. In fact, I'd be surprised if it hasn't been looked at by a major manufacturer. If you can come up with a variable timing version too, I think manufacturers would be very interested. For the lack of brake servo on you test car, find a diesel alternator with vacuum pump. You want people to be thinking about the engine, not that the brakes suck.

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    Re: PatRon Harmonically Reciprocating Piston Rotary Engine

    Hello Pictsidhe.

    You write:
    “I'm voting for the vva project. In fact, I'd be surprised if it hasn't been looked at by a major manufacturer. If you can come up with a variable timing version too, I think manufacturers would be very interested. For the lack of brake servo on you test car, find a diesel alternator with vacuum pump. You want people to be thinking about the engine, not that the brakes suck.”


    Having a thick pack of reply letters from the engine makers around the world, I can assure you that they don’t seem to “be very interested” about VVA’s (unless they are designed / patented by their own personnel and are assigned to the company from the beginning (i.e. with the filing of the patent application)).


    As CheapRacer writes “it's a case of real world practicabilitys and which one would stand a real chance of success.”


    A weak point of all poppet valve engines is the existence of hot spots into the combustion chamber.

    The exhaust poppet valves cannot help running “red hot”.

    The combustion of a molecule of fuel nearby a red-hot exhaust poppet valve is far different than the combustion of another molecule of fuel nearby the piston head, or nearby the intake poppet valve.


    One by one the carmakers phase-out their small turbo charged Diesels. For instance, the new Toyota Yaris will not have a Diesel version.

    The reason is that the emissions from the new Diesels have to comply with the EURO6 regulations which are common for spark ignition and compression ignition engines.

    The worst problem for the small Diesels appears to be the need for significant reduction of the NOx (Diesel scandal).


    This gives a real “chance of success” to the PatRoVa rotary valve:



    because the PatRoVa can change the play in the small direct injection 4-stroke Diesels.


    QUOTE from http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatRoVa.htm

    Combustion chamber

    The combustion chamber is compact. The piston crown is flat without pockets.

    The combustion chamber is rid of hot spots (like, for instance, the hot exhaust poppet valves of the conventional engines, or like the hot chamber ports of the state-of-the-art exhaust rotary valves). Every point of the combustion chamber is equally related with the intake and with the exhaust. On this reasoning the compression ratio can further increase.”

    End of QUOTE


    With uniform temperature of the walls of the combustion chamber (there are not hot-spots for the compressed air to come in contact with), the NOx formation is suppressed from the beginning.

    And because the formation of NOx is a highly endotherm reaction, eliminating the NOx besides cleaning the exhaust, it also increases the BTE (better mileage) and the power available on the crankshaft.


    Thoughts?

    Objections?

    Thanks
    Manolis Pattakos

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    Re: PatRon Harmonically Reciprocating Piston Rotary Engine

    The problem with rotary valves is balancing the sealing requirements with low friction. I can see great difficulty in sealing the patrova. As I understand it, Nox is not formed from hotspots, but from the bulk gas temperature. I believe that compression on diesels is coming down for several reasons. To limit nox, but mainly to keep peak pressure down with ever increasing boost levels.
    I said I thought manufacturers would have looked at your vva, that you should also have variable timing to get their interest.

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    Re: PatRon Harmonically Reciprocating Piston Rotary Engine

    Hello Pictsidhe.


    You write:
    “I said I thought manufacturers would have looked at your vva, that you should also have variable timing to get their interest.”


    Take the valvetronic of BMW.
    Without a “wide angle” VVT (variable valve timing), the VANOS as BMW calls it, the valvetronic cannot function.

    Take the VVA-roller of pattakon, that mounted on the Honda VTEC. Reducing the valve lift, both the overlap and the duration reduce too. At very low lifts, there is no overlap (of intake exhaust) at all:




    Take the DVVA (Desmodromic Variable Valve Actuation). The valve duration and the valve lift vary independently from each other. You can vary the overlap from zero (or negative if you desire so) to a maximum.


    Take the PatAir VVA (an improved version of the MultiAir of FIAT / Chrysler / INA / Schaeffler). Its architecture integrates a VVT control (without having a VVT): you can vary the pulses that activate / de-activate the solenoid valve (it is a matter of programming of the ECU) and the valve opening and the valve closing are “timed” as you like:



    (for more: http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonHydro.htm )


    To be noted: the conventional VVT’s used in the car engines today have, due to their architecture, an inherent weakness: they shift together the valve opening and the valve closing by the same angle. And this is bad.

    Think about it:

    Having a set of wild camshafts (on a sport or racing engine) giving (at full power setting) a 60 degrees overlap and a duration of 300 degrees (which could mean: intake valve opens 30 degrees BTDC and closes 90 degrees after the BDC, exhaust opens 90 degrees BBDC and closes 30 degrees ATDC), what a conventional VVT can do?

    If you want to decrease the overlap at 0 degrees (for the sake of clean exhaust), the two camshafts can be shifted for 30 crankshaft degrees; in this case the intake valve opens at the TDC and closes 120 degrees after the BDC, while the exhaust opens 120 degrees before BDC and closes at the TDC (i.e. the exhaust opens 60 degrees after the TDC).

    As you see the typical VVT is not “the panacea”. It solves some problems creating some others.

    On the other hand, the pattakon VVA’s (which have some kind of internal VVT) can be combined with any VVT of the market.




    You also write:
    “As I understand it, Nox is not formed from hotspots, but from the bulk gas temperature. I believe that compression on diesels is coming down for several reasons. To limit nox, but mainly to keep peak pressure down with ever increasing boost levels.”


    QUOTE from https://www.dieselnet.com/tech/diesel_emiform.php


    “Unlike spark-ignited engines where the combustible mixture is predominantly homogeneous, diesel combustion is heterogeneous in nature. Diesel fuel is injected into a cylinder filled with high temperature compressed air. Emissions formed as a result of burning this heterogenous air/fuel mixture depend on the prevailing conditions not only during combustion, but also during the expansion and especially prior to the exhaust valve opening. Mixture preparation during the ignition delay, fuel ignition quality, residence time at different combustion temperatures, expansion duration, and general engine design features play a very important role in emission formation. In essence, the concentration of the different emission species in the exhaust is the result of their formation, and their reduction in the exhaust system. Incomplete combustion products formed in the early stages of combustion may be oxidized later during the expansion stroke. Mixing of unburned hydrocarbons with oxidizing gases, high combustion chamber temperature, and adequate residence time for the oxidation process permit more complete combustion. In most cases, once nitric oxide (NO) is formed it is not decomposed, but may increase in concentration during the rest of the combustion process if the temperature remains high [Henein 1972].

    Figure 1 summarizes the sources of unburned hydrocarbons (HC) and NO in direct-injected diesel engines. Species formed in both the premixed and diffusion (mixing controlled) combustion phases are shown [Heywood 1988]..



    Figure 1. Pollutant Formation Mechanisms in DI Combustion System


    End of QUOTE


    In the same combustion chamber there are spots wherein the conditions favor the formation of CO (say, nearby the cold intake valves), and other spots wherein the conditions favor the formations of NOx (say, nearby the red-hot exhaust valves).

    Keeping the wall temperature uniform (say, by replacing the poppet valves by a PatRoVa rotary valve) gives less chances harmful pollutants creation.

    In the lab tests of the Bishop Rotary Valve Formula1 engine (gasoline, spark ignition) the knocking was unknown even at 17:1 compression ratios.




    You also write:
    “The problem with rotary valves is balancing the sealing requirements with low friction. I can see great difficulty in sealing the patrova.”


    The PatRova has solved the problem of friction.
    It saves mechanical power (and so it increases the BTE) by eliminating the friction loss related with the conventional valve-trains it replaces.

    For the PatRoVa rotary valve the problem of sealing is a problem of keeping adequately small the clearance between the two lips at the sides of the combustion cavity on the cylinder head and the two oppositely arranged flat surfaces of the rotary valve.

    There are exotic materials (like the ceramics used for the pistons and the cylinders of several experimental engines a decade, or so, ago) which can do it.

    There are “strange” materials (like the INVAR, a kind of steel having almost zero thermal expansion coefficient) which can do the same.

    But even with conventional / cheap materials (like “spheroid graphite iron”) for the rotary valve spooler and the cylinder / cylinder head):



    the required sealing for a Diesel is achievable.

    Because the PatRoVa is different than the known rotary valves:





    Because the PatRoVa architecture cancels out internally the extreme loads it receives from the high pressure gas, leaving the rest structure unloaded, and because one only dimension has to do with the sealing of the PatRoVa: that along the rotation axis of the rotary valve (actually: the width of the combustion cavity).

    Thanks
    Manolis Pattakos
    Last edited by manolis; March 21st, 2017 at 12:50 AM.

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    Re: PatRon Harmonically Reciprocating Piston Rotary Engine

    Quote Originally Posted by manolis View Post

    I can see great difficulty in sealing the patrova.”
    In the entire history of the engine, only a few attempts at rotary valving have had some success with sealing, no amount of proffering ideas will have any one believe it is so until it is proven to be so.

    The Aspin rotary valve, probably the most successful design, sealed because of it's conical shape, the more pressure you gave it, the more it was forced into it's taper under compression, the better it sealed.


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	aspin2.gif 
Views:	6 
Size:	39.3 KB 
ID:	60212


    http://www.villiers.info/Aspin/
    Quote Originally Posted by BoKu View Post
    The vast majority of engineering failures are the results of failure of imagination rather than failure of calculation.

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    Re: PatRon Harmonically Reciprocating Piston Rotary Engine

    Hello CheapRacer.

    You write:
    “In the entire history of the engine, only a few attempts at rotary valving have had some success with sealing, no amount of proffering ideas will have any one believe it is so until it is proven to be so.
    The Aspin rotary valve, probably the most successful design, sealed because of it's conical shape, the more pressure you gave it, the more it was forced into it's taper under compression, the better it sealed.”


    Your:

    “because of it's conical shape, the more pressure you gave it, the more it was forced into it's taper under compression, the better it sealed.”

    would be right in case we were talking for a “stationary”, during the high pressure period of the cycle, conical rotary valve.

    But the reality is that the Aspin conical rotary valve continues to rotate during the high pressure period of the cycle (compression, combustion, expansion).

    And this is a more than serious problen in terms of reliability, of sealing efficiency etc.


    Don’t believe me. Believe Ralph Watson.


    QUOTE from http://ralphwatson.scienceontheweb.net/rotary.html (do read the complete article):

    THE DEVELOPMENT OF A VIABLE ROTARY VALVE ENGINE

    Ralph O. Watson, 1/2/2001

    I first became interested in the rotary valve as applied to internal combustion engines around about 1939, after reading an article in a motor cycle magazine describing an Aspin rotary valve four stroke engine. This engine had a capacity of 250 c.c. and it was claimed to produce 29 h.p. at 14,000 r.p.m., using low octane petrol.
    At the time, I was living in Nelson and serving an engineering apprenticeship. On occasion I watched a group of engineers, led by the well-known aviator George Bolt, race one metre hydroplanes on the local model boat pond.
    These model boats were powered by 30 c.c. engines and ran tethered to a central pole in the pond to provide quite exciting action. Being an enthusiastic experimenter, the Aspin engine came to my mind and I decided that I should give them some competition.
    With great, but what turned out to be misguided enthusiasm, I built a model engine based on the Aspin design, which incorporated a cone type valve the same diameter as the cylinder bore, rotating in the cylinder head. The combustion chamber was contained within the rotary valve, which rotated to line up in turn with the spark plug, exhaust port and inlet port.
    Full combustion pressure was applied to the valve, forcing it into the taper of its conical seat with the object of ensuring a good seal, but this arrangement could result in the valve seizing in the head due to lack of clearance and lubrication. In order to counter this, the Aspin design incorporated a roller thrust bearing on the valve stem.
    I used the same arrangement but could not attain an adjustment whereby the bearing took the load and a satisfactory seal was achieved. When adjusted so that load was on the bearing, the seal leaked and the engine had poor compression and would not run. With load on the cone the valve would seize. After suffering much frustration with broken drive shafts and stripped gears, the engine was eventually run for short periods with load on the cone, thanks to a copious supply of castor oil. This was supplied under pressure to the valve face, by means of a hand pump. My goal of fitting the engine into a model hydroplane came to naught and George Bolt and company remained unopposed at the model pond.
    However I was able to test the engine running against a brake and it recorded 1/8 h.p. at 8,000 r.p.m., which was a disappointment when related to the figures quoted in the article which had inspired my efforts.
    Many years later the story came out that the Aspin engine was tested by the motorcycle manufacturers Velocette, who found that it produced only half the horsepower claimed, the suggestion being that the original testing had been carried out with a wrongly calibrated tachometer.
    Early 1987, some forty years after making the original experimental model engine, the possibility of using the rotary valve principal again, came to mind. I had spent a great deal of time and effort restoring my old BSA special sports racing car, which had come back into my hands as a total wreck. There were indications that the engine had a very limited life between overhauls and each rebuild was becoming more difficult because the parts required had to be made.
    . . . .











    END OF QUOTE


    If a rotary valve can be considered successful, it is not the Aspin rotary valve but the Cross rotary valve (a version of which is the Ralf Watson rotary valve).

    The Bishop rotary valve (another version of the Cross rotary valve) came near to success in 2003: according their tests, they achieved a 10% increase of the power of the Formula 1 engines (Bishop was supported by Ilmor and Mercedes).





    In 2004 FIA changed the rules to ban the rotary valves from F1; and everything stopped.

    For more: http://www.pattakon.com/Bishop_Rotar...utoTechBRV.pdf




    Back to the PatRoVa rotary valve:

    In comparison to the Aspin rotary valve, which is loaded by a few tons of force during the combustion (for instance: with a peak pressure of 70bar into the combustion chamber, a normal size Aspin rotary valve of say, 80mm diameter (which gives a 50cm2 surface area towards the piston crown) is loaded by a peak force of 3,500Kp (35,000Nt, 7,700lb)), the PatRoVa rotary valve remains completely unloaded (the total force it receives is zero; the force loading its bearings is zero).

    Regarding the loads on its bearings, the Aspin rotary valve is far worse than the Cross rotary valve (wherein the window on the top of combustion chamber reduces substantially the surface area on the Cross rotary valve whereon it is applied the high pressure of the combustion chamber).

    Similarly for the Spherical rotary valves (say, like those of Coates) wherein the loads on the bearings are way smaller than the loads on the bearings of the Aspin rotary valve.


    QUOTE from http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatRoVa.htm

    “Load on bearings / shaft as compared to the state-of-the-art

    In the following drawing, at right, an intake spherical rotary valve seals a chamber-port of 20cm2 port-area (it substitutes two 36mm diameter intake poppet valves of a conventional 500cc cylinder),
    an exhaust spherical rotary valve seals another chamber-port of 20cm2 port-area (it substitutes two exhaust poppet valves of the 500cc cylinder).
    A 100bar pressure during the combustion (turbocharged engines operating at substantially higher than 100 bar maximum pressure are quite common) causes an "upwards" force of 2 tons (20cm2*100Kp/cm2) on the intake spherical rotary valve and another "upwards" force of 2 tons on the exhaust rotary valve.
    If the same shaft supports both spherical valves, the total force loading the bearings of the rotary valve shaft is 4 tons.

    In the case of the PatRoVa rotary valve, at left, two chamber-ports, each having only 10cm2 port-area, offer the same flow capacity



    A 100bar pressure during the combustion causes a side force of 1 ton (100Kp/cm2 * 10cm2) on the one front and an equal and opposite force of 1 ton on the oppositely arranged front of the PatRoVa rotary valve.
    The two fronts are firmly secured to each other by a robust shaft / hub.
    In total, the bearings supporting the PatRoVa rotary valve can run completely unloaded.

    From a practical viewpoint:
    Leaving free (i.e. without support bearings) the PatRoVa rotary valve on the cylinder head to seat in place and seal, by its oppositely arranged fronts, the two side chamber-ports, and applying a high pressure (like 100bar) in the combustion chamber, the PatRoVa rotary valve has no tendency to move upwards, or downwards, or to the side.

    In comparison, a force of a few tons is required to keep in place a state-of-the-art rotary valve when the same 100bar pressure is in the combustion chamber; the extreme upwards force loads its bearings and causes, among others, the flexing / deformation of the spherical valve, of the shaft of the rotary valve and of the cylinder head wherein the shaft is supported.

    The cavity of the PatRoVa architecture eliminates the radial forces acting on the rotary valve and on its bearings, which is a major (if not the worst) problem of the known rotary valve designs.

    The ceiling of the PatRoVa cavity receives the heavy radial forces and releases, this way, the rotary valve from them.

    The PatRoVa cavity is a buckler that protects the rotary valve from the radial forces.”


    END OF QUOTE


    Are the previous clear?

    If not, take a look at the following photo:



    wherein the PatRoVa rotary valve (the ports are not yet machined) seats “free” on the cylinder head and seals the two chamber ports at the sides of the combustion chamber.

    The peak pressure (with manual cranking, dry (without any lubricant; read at Coates web site what this means)) is 12 bar.

    The upwards force on the PatRoVa rotary valve is zero (it is so small that it cannot lift the weight of the rotary valve).

    With 12 bar on a 75mm diameter Aspin rotary valve (75mm is the bore of the cylinder of the prototype engine in the photo), the upwards force would be: 12Kp/cm2 * 44cm2 = 530Kp (5,300Nt, 1,160lb).

    With combustion in the cylinder (say, 75 bar peak pressure), the upwards peak force on the PatRoVa rotary valve remains zero, while the force on the Aspin rotary valve (and its bearings) is 3,300Kp (33,000Nt, 7,300lb).

    A roller bearing can bear such heavy loads. However, and this is important, it cannot bear such heavy loads keeping at the same time the clearance between the cooperating conical surfaces as tiny as required.



    Do you understand now the difference of the PatRoVa rotary valve from all the rest rotary valves?

    Is it clear, now, this (there are several) “inventive step” of the PatRoVa rotary valve?

    Do you still think that the Aspin rotary valve was a smart / successful design?



    In the PatRoVa rotary valve of this animation:



    a thin splined shaft drives all the four independent rotary valves of the engine.

    At a thermal expansion (or contraction) each rotary valve slides slightly along the splined shaft and continues its friction-free / wear-free cooperation with the respective ports.

    Allowing a wider clearance (play) between the spline shaft and the rotary valves, each rotary valve is free to self-align (at all three directions) with the two lips of its respective combustion chamber.


    Objections?

    Thanks
    Manolis Pattakos
    Last edited by manolis; March 22nd, 2017 at 12:53 AM.

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    Re: PatRon Harmonically Reciprocating Piston Rotary Engine

    You are still designing sealing wax. Missing the total boat. Designing against the poppet valve engine that works and works for 200,000 miles easily is not going to get traction. Monies spent on others is just a way to make people feel good. Design an engine that goes a million miles with only oil changes and low loss in performance, and you have something.

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