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Thread: Communication

  1. #16
    Registered User gtae07's Avatar
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    Re: Communication

    This is what ADS-B is supposed to help with. It's not a panacea, and it doesn't replace a visual scan--it complements it. Though I think the much bigger benefit is the weather datalink...

    Now, regarding the architecture of the system in general, that's another matter.
    I reserve the right to be smarter tomorrow than I was yesterday.

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    Registered User BJC's Avatar
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    Re: Communication

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
    And that is supported by the data - 'under certain conditions of contrasting atmospheric light' -however, we don't have a way to quantify those conditions. That leaves us with the general consensus that "the available evidence does not support the use of lights in daylight conditions"

    Even with research, studies and published data, the FAA promotes and maintains the feel good program "Operation lights-ON" or the aviation version of "Smoke 'em if you got 'em"

    I think it's important to understand the lack of effectiveness of lights in daylight to prevent complacency, i.e., relying on strobes to increase safety as that premise is not supported by the data. Yeah, turn your lights on if you got em but keep all eyeballs looking out the windows.
    I was not disagreeing with the "general concensus", just citing examples of where strobe lights are of benefit to me. An example is flying westerly from Causey.
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    Registered User BBerson's Avatar
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    Re: Communication

    The light bars on cop cars are really noticeable. Not sure how much current they draw. And cop cars are always straight ahead and easy to spot.
    No strobe will help find a target climbing toward you from behind or below, for example.

    I wish the FAA did tests to prove the airworthiness of each rule. The strobe rule apparently is almost useless and gives a false sense of security.
    Last edited by BBerson; January 5th, 2017 at 12:04 PM.

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    Re: Communication

    LED's are super efficient, Some that i can see from the ground are Super Brite, you can't miss seeing them. If these lights were to be used to, how can you not see them while flying, within your field of view? A great complement to scan and radio. Safety is your responsibility, yours and other pilots. I can think of 2 midair collisions, 1 just a few days ago.
    Ben

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    Re: Communication

    And those midair airplanes almost certainly had strobes.

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    Re: Communication

    Quote Originally Posted by BBerson View Post
    And those midair airplanes almost certainly had strobes.
    So i guess you're against strobes. Unbelievable!

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    Re: Communication

    Did someone say they were against strobes? The information suggests they don't work well in daylight conditions. This is unbelievable?
    Your maturity might be showing.

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    Re: Communication

    Quote Originally Posted by wanttobuild View Post
    I can think of 2 midair collisions, 1 just a few days ago.
    Which is no doubt driving some of your emotionally charged responses Ben. Mid-air collisions are nothing new. Fortunately they are rare but still a part of aviation for the past 100 yrs. And there is no evidence installing a strobe light will end all mid-air collisions, or even reduce them. Same for a radio, The PSA 727 / C-172 midair is one of the landmark mid-air collisions that occurred while both planes were talking to ATC.

    There are studies in progress now that suggest pilots are not watching for other traffic. Too many screens and gadgets in the cockpit are entertaining pilots and they are failing to perform the basic see and avoid function. The aviation equivalent of distracted driving. The jury is still out on that but I'll keep a watch on any development.

    Recently a pilot posted a picture of his cockpit on another internet forum and he had 3 large iPad screens mounted on top of the glare shield obstructing view outside the cockpit. I asked how he scans for other traffic with all that crap in the way and his response was 'With all that "crap" he didn't need to look outside' and he was serious. Pretty scary stuff. Just turn on the strobes and go?

    My hope is that the FAA doesn't mandate a positive control solution, like they did in 1956 after the Grand Canyon mid-air collision. That would destroy any recreation left in recreational aviation. In the meantime, I'm going to continue learning about see-and-avoid and how to look for other traffic. Pretty sure I don't know it all despite 40 yrs of doing this stuff.
    “The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible.” - Mark Twain

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    Re: Communication

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
    I have key excerpts from several:

    "FAA studies have concluded that there is no support for the use of strobes in daylight. A
    1989 FAA study of the effectiveness of see-and-avoid concluded that ‘Aircraft colours or lights
    play no significant role in first directing a pilot’s attention to the other aircraft during daytime’
    (Graham 1989)."
    [The above also shoots down the "painting your plane bright colors will make it more visible" theory as false. The reality is a plane of any color beyond a certain distance appears dark in color]

    "In 1958 the USAF Air Training Command conducted flight tests to compare strobe anticollision
    lights with rotating beacons. It was concluded that in daylight conditions, no
    lighting system could be expected to prevent collisions."


    "Further tests in 1958 at the U.S. Air Force’s Wright-Patterson Base again found that strobe
    lights were ineffective in daylight"


    "U.S. Air Force tests in 1976 found extremely poor performance of strobe lights on aircraft.
    In all cases, the aircraft was sighted before the strobe. In addition, it was found that after
    two years service on aircraft, strobe lights were about half as intense as expected."

    "Extensive trials in 1977 by the US Air Force Aeronautical Systems Division used strobes
    fitted on a tower and observers at various distances and viewing angles. The results
    indicated that in daylight, even a strobe of 36000 candelas was not particularly
    conspicuous"


    ATSB 1991:
    2.8.1 Effectiveness of lights
    There have been frequent suggestions that the fitting of white strobe lights to aircraft can help
    prevent collisions in daylight. At various times BAS1 and the NTSB have each recommended the
    fitting of white strobe anticollision lights. Unfortunately, the available evidence does not support the use of lights in daylight conditions

    "Field trials have generally confirmed the ineffectiveness of strobes in daylight"



    Much more data in files on other computers, etc. (not my first rodeo on the topic)

    Usually, when someone suggest strobes make a plane more visible, I ask for their supporting data. Have yet to get other than emotional response.
    The Brits (RAF) did a lot of research too. Same conclusions on strobes. Interesting ones on color. A totally black airplane was easily the best visible one.

    Sun-strobes do work great and are very visible as long as you're flying in the sun. They're no more than a metallic piece of tape (or a paint?) on a double-curved part like a wingtip or winglet. The flashes when the sun hits it is very obvious, even many miles away, like the reflection of the sun on a tilted window.
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    Re: Communication

    Since lasers are blinding pilots, why not a laser-ball that projects lasers out of the spherical surface every 3 degrees?

  13. #26
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    Re: Communication

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
    I have key excerpts from several: ...
    All those studies support the conclusion that at least a significant part of what makes an airplane visible against the sky background is the contrast of the airplane against the bright sky background. Which is why it's easier to see airplanes that are back-lit rather than lit on the same side at which you're looking.

    During WWII, active research showed that under the right conditions, putting lights on an aircraft actually made it blend in with the bright sky background. They were going so far as to investigate ways to automatically adjust the brightness of the lights as a form of "optical stealth", but then RADAR came along and blew that notion. The lights fill in the shadows and contrast of the aircraft against the bright sky background. Reducing contrast of the aircraft against the sky makes it less visible, not more. Blinking the lights only means that it's "less visible" during the time they're on, and just as visible as if they didn't exist if they're off.

    For daytime strobes to be effective, they have to be much brighter than the sky background, at whatever distance they're being observed by the other party. At ranges of a couple of miles, that's extraordinarily hard to do, spherically around the entire aircraft.

    Reducing mid-air collisions is a goal we all share. I appreciate that daytime strobes seem like a simple answer. Unfortunately, like many simple answers, they don't actually improve the situation. They can actually make it worse.
    Last edited by Topaz; January 5th, 2017 at 07:18 PM.
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    Registered User BBerson's Avatar
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    Re: Communication

    Humans (and other predators) tend to notice moving objects.
    Unfortunately, they say a converging airplane will often not move from a spot in the windshield. It just gets bigger.
    I have had close calls. He didn't see me either.

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    Re: Communication

    I put strobes on the JMR for one reason. In my area I don't like flying at night because its all mountains and forest. You can be above the mountains in sunshine and down in the valleys the autos will have their headlights on. So there are very little flat land for a runway so most runways are in the deep valleys where I would prefer to have some lights on when approaching the runway in a narrow valley.
    Pops

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    Registered User bmcj's Avatar
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    Re: Communication

    Quote Originally Posted by Topaz View Post
    Which is why it's easier to see airplanes that are back-lit rather than lit on the same side at which you're looking.
    So much for the "diving from the direction of the Sun" strategy.

  18. #30
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    Re: Communication

    Quote Originally Posted by bmcj View Post
    So much for the "diving from the direction of the Sun" strategy.
    >snork< Yeah, that's another thing entirely.
    "If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them." - Henry David Thoreau

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