Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 25

Thread: Is This Legal (Or Ethical)?

  1. #1
    Registered User Cy V's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    256
    Likes (Given)
    27
    Likes (Received)
    31

    Is This Legal (Or Ethical)?

    I stumbled upon a new Youtube video today of a pilot who takes a friend with zero pilot training or experience. Nothing. The pilot then talks him through landing the plane. It appears to be a stunt of some kind. Is something like this even legal? I mean, even if the pilot is a CFI, should he be doing something like this? Is this ethical?

    The video:


  2. #2
    Registered User bmcj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Fresno, California
    Posts
    11,368
    Likes (Given)
    5992
    Likes (Received)
    3798

    Re: Is This Legal (Or Ethical)?

    I've seen that video before.

    Real? Possibly (though some of it, like searching for the door, seems a bit scripted. Legal, sure... the licensed pilot is the PIC regardless of what the passenger does. Ethical? That depends on how skilled the pilot is and whether he would allow the pax to get the plane into a grey area where the margin for recovery is in question.

    We have no way to know if the pax is being honest about ZERO familiarity with flight and aircraft. Has he truly never been in a plane? Has he ridden as a passenger on other flights so that he knows what the approach should look like? Has he played on PC flight simulators? Has he read any books or seen any videos on how to fly? Have they edited out scores of scenes where the plane was in danger? Was the PIC offering any suggestions, pre-flight or in-flight? Was the PIC offering any nudges of the controls?

    I did notice that after landing, the pax tried to steer the plane off the runway with the yoke, yet the plane did turn... was the PIC on the rudders and brakes? How would the pax even know about the approach angle or the toe-brakes for landing?

  3. #3
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Upper midwest in a house
    Posts
    3,068
    Likes (Given)
    306
    Likes (Received)
    981

    Re: Is This Legal (Or Ethical)?

    Illegal, no. Unethical, no. Impractical and pointless, yes. PIC intervened on the controls numerous times in the published video so if this was a myth that anybody can land a plane, myth is busted.

    Here's the facts. If you are on an airliner and the pilots keel over dead, everybody on board is going to die. Nobody from the cabin is getting into the cockpit, period.
    “The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible.” - Mark Twain

    “If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$hi+.” ― W.C. Fields

  4. #4
    Registered User bmcj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Fresno, California
    Posts
    11,368
    Likes (Given)
    5992
    Likes (Received)
    3798

    Re: Is This Legal (Or Ethical)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
    Illegal, no. Unethical, no. Impractical and pointless, yes. PIC intervened on the controls numerous times in the published video so if this was a myth that anybody can land a plane, myth is busted.

    Here's the facts. If you are on an airliner and the pilots keel over dead, everybody on board is going to die. Nobody from the cabin is getting into the cockpit, period.
    So the first question from the stewardess should be, "Does anyone know how to get through the cockpit door?"

    Are the doors secured by key, combination, or card (swipe/RF)? Does anyone else like the stewards or Air Marshall have access to the cockpit in an emergency?
    Last edited by bmcj; December 27th, 2016 at 01:50 PM.

  5. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Upper midwest in a house
    Posts
    3,068
    Likes (Given)
    306
    Likes (Received)
    981

    Re: Is This Legal (Or Ethical)?

    someone with a stick of dynamite in their carryon bag might have access.
    “The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible.” - Mark Twain

    “If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$hi+.” ― W.C. Fields

  6. #6
    Registered User gtae07's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    1,127
    Likes (Given)
    556
    Likes (Received)
    655

    Re: Is This Legal (Or Ethical)?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmcj View Post
    So the first question from the stewardess should be, "Does anyone know how to get through the cockpit door?"

    Are the doors secured by key, combination, or card (swipe/RF)? Does anyone else like the stewards or Air Marshall have access to the cockpit in an emergency?
    Those who know, aren't going to answer.
    I reserve the right to be smarter tomorrow than I was yesterday.

  7. Likes wwalton liked this post
  8. #7
    Registered User wsimpso1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Saline Michigan
    Posts
    3,600
    Likes (Given)
    541
    Likes (Received)
    1300

    Re: Is This Legal (Or Ethical)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cy V View Post
    I stumbled upon a new Youtube video today of a pilot who takes a friend with zero pilot training or experience. Nothing. The pilot then talks him through landing the plane. It appears to be a stunt of some kind. Is something like this even legal? I mean, even if the pilot is a CFI, should he be doing something like this? Is this ethical?

    The video:

    This guy knew more than a little. He knew that he had to figure out how to maneuver, he knew what an airport looked like from the sky, he had pretty good ideas about maneuvering to final, he had pretty good thinking about how to use the GPS to find an airport, in short, he had some idea about what was going on. Going further, he also had plenty of time to figure some things out without the CFI chattering in his ear constantly. Nonetheless, I do suspect a ringer...

    As far as figuring out landings, CFI's actually do this sort of thing with students. Every student has to land the airplane for the first time. They go flying with someone who has never landed an airplane before and talk them through it, intervening as necessary, and they land the airplane. It helps if they have some knowledge of what it is supposed to look like, but they still have to do it with the controls themselves...

    If you tell them when to do things, and then get them to adjust, it can work really well. I call it the voice command autopilot. Get them started at the right altitude and speed, tell them when to change power settings "Ok, a little less power, good..." what speed to hold "ok, pull the yoke towards you a little more to hold 80 knots, keep that pressure...", then when to add another notch of flaps, when to start the pattern turns, "roll left now, ok, hold that bank", when to roll out "roll it right to wings level, good, keep it wings level now", and line up corrections "now push and hold a little left rudder, now right, keep it on the centerline with the rudders that way", and then a little help on the flare "ease the yoke back gently, slower, hold it right there, wait for it, wait for it...". Sound familiar to anyone who has taking some training? The student is not making the important judgments about power, when to turn, altitude, or even how much bank to use, the instructor is, and if the student complies, it can really be a big deal. Once you get past that spot, you start them on finding their own cues for each of the events in the approach...

    This guy was no beginner, he had some idea what he had to do before he did it.

    Billski
    Last edited by wsimpso1; December 27th, 2016 at 05:17 PM.

  9. Likes bmcj liked this post
  10. #8
    Registered User choppergirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    T̵o̵r̵n̵a̵d̵o̵ MiG Alley ★★★★★
    Posts
    701
    Likes (Given)
    145
    Likes (Received)
    290

    Re: Is This Legal (Or Ethical)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
    Here's the facts. If you are on an airliner and the pilots keel over dead, everybody on board is going to die. Nobody from the cabin is getting into the cockpit, period.
    Choppergirl's getting through the door! She can pick locks. Hacker skills 101. Plus, she's got over a million hours piloting ultralights on Youtube from an armchair. Hell yeah, I can land this baby! It's just like a Betty bomber, only the controls are in English! Not a problem, we got PATCO controllers on the ground to talk me in...

    CHOPPERGIRL @ AIR-WAR.ORG ~ Flying with Christina
    My grandfather flew 171 combat missions in the P-38, P-39, and P-47; my dad was an air traffic controller and 170 pilot; my mom sold travel luggage to Mohamed Atta, the 9/11 hijacker mastermind; I'm restoring Dorothy, a Volmer Jensen VJ-24W motor glider I bought on eBay for $38, and Alice, a Chotia Woodhopper I bought on Barnstormers for $99. I'm in no hurry; doing it to fly, and to learn how to restore hopeless case ultralights.

  11. #9
    Registered User BBerson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    6,781
    Likes (Given)
    1186
    Likes (Received)
    996

    Re: Is This Legal (Or Ethical)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
    Illegal, no. Unethical, no. Impractical and pointless, yes. PIC intervened on the controls numerous times in the published video so if this was a myth that anybody can land a plane, myth is busted.

    Here's the facts. If you are on an airliner and the pilots keel over dead, everybody on board is going to die. Nobody from the cabin is getting into the cockpit, period.
    Wait for it to run out of fuel then at 100 feet agl half the people run to the back for a nice landing flair?

  12. Likes bmcj, pictsidhe liked this post
  13. #10
    Registered User Aerowerx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Marion, Ohio
    Posts
    3,147
    Likes (Given)
    446
    Likes (Received)
    818

    Re: Is This Legal (Or Ethical)?

    Quote Originally Posted by BBerson View Post
    Wait for it to run out of fuel then at 100 feet agl half the people run to the back for a nice landing flair?
    Which will probably be somewhere about 150 miles south of Iceland.
    ___________________________
    Optimist: The bottle is half full.
    Pessimist: The bottle is half empty.
    Engineer: The bottle has a Factor of Safety of 2.0

  14. #11
    Registered User Aerowerx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Marion, Ohio
    Posts
    3,147
    Likes (Given)
    446
    Likes (Received)
    818

    Re: Is This Legal (Or Ethical)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
    ...f you are on an airliner and the pilots keel over dead, everybody on board is going to die. Nobody from the cabin is getting into the cockpit, period.
    What happened to the copilot?

    [edit] Sorry. Just saw that you said "pilots", not "pilot".
    ___________________________
    Optimist: The bottle is half full.
    Pessimist: The bottle is half empty.
    Engineer: The bottle has a Factor of Safety of 2.0

  15. #12
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Upper midwest in a house
    Posts
    3,068
    Likes (Given)
    306
    Likes (Received)
    981

    Re: Is This Legal (Or Ethical)?

    Quote Originally Posted by choppergirl View Post
    Choppergirl's getting through the door! She can pick locks. Hacker skills 101.
    No, nobody includes you. Lockpicking is a good skill to have only you'll still be looking for a lock to pick when you meet your maker.
    “The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible.” - Mark Twain

    “If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$hi+.” ― W.C. Fields

  16. #13
    Registered User gtae07's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    1,127
    Likes (Given)
    556
    Likes (Received)
    655

    Re: Is This Legal (Or Ethical)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
    No, nobody includes you. Lockpicking is a good skill to have only you'll still be looking for a lock to pick when you meet your maker.
    Picking locks came in handy as an undergrad, when the breaker for our room blew the Friday night before finals week and maintenance wouldn't come out to reset it till Monday morning. I picked the lock on the breaker panel and reset it, giving us power back for ourcomputers and refrigerator over the most critical studying weekend of the semester.

    And before you ask, the reason it blew is that there was one 20 amp breaker serving one and a half dorm rooms. Running a microwave in both rooms killed it. That's life in a 70 year old dorm...
    I reserve the right to be smarter tomorrow than I was yesterday.

  17. #14
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Upper midwest in a house
    Posts
    3,068
    Likes (Given)
    306
    Likes (Received)
    981

    Re: Is This Legal (Or Ethical)?

    Quote Originally Posted by gtae07 View Post
    Picking locks came in handy as an undergrad, when the breaker for our room blew the Friday night before finals week and maintenance wouldn't come out to reset it till Monday morning. I picked the lock on the breaker panel and reset it, giving us power back for ourcomputers and refrigerator over the most critical studying weekend of the semester.

    And before you ask, the reason it blew is that there was one 20 amp breaker serving one and a half dorm rooms. Running a microwave in both rooms killed it. That's life in a 70 year old dorm...
    In high school I used to pick padlocks. Made my own picks, etc. I would pick all the padlocks around school, remove them and switch them around to a different location. One time they had to delay start of a home football game because they couldn't get the press box unlocked, lol. All kids do today is hack into websites. pffttt.
    “The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible.” - Mark Twain

    “If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$hi+.” ― W.C. Fields

  18. #15
    Registered User cheapracer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Australian
    Posts
    3,711
    Likes (Given)
    2299
    Likes (Received)
    2034

    Re: Is This Legal (Or Ethical)?

    Nothing hard about picking locks, they are only there to keep honest people out.

    I believe it's illegal in Australia for non-licensed person to touch the controls unless dire emergency (or obviously under a licenced Instructor).
    Quote Originally Posted by BoKu View Post
    The vast majority of engineering failures are the results of failure of imagination rather than failure of calculation.

Similar Threads

  1. Legal Eagle or PB-1, which one??
    By William777 in forum The light stuff area
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: December 29th, 2016, 12:13 PM
  2. Top 12 FAR-103 Legal UL's, do you agree?
    By azsportpilot in forum The light stuff area
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: June 12th, 2015, 11:00 AM
  3. Legal Eagle
    By Alan Waters in forum The light stuff area
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: January 28th, 2015, 11:36 PM
  4. KABQ Legal....
    By carnell in forum Rules and Regulations / Flight Safety / Better Pilots
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: July 21st, 2011, 02:56 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •