Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 54

Thread: Flying career for daughter

  1. #16
    Registered User gtae07's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    1,127
    Likes (Given)
    557
    Likes (Received)
    655

    Re: Flying career for daughter

    For whatever it's worth, my dad flew off carriers in the Navy before getting out and joining on with a major airline.

    When I was 16 and looking at colleges and careers, I knew what my major was going to be (aerospace engineering) but was convinced I wanted to fly for a living. I was applying to the service academies and looking at civilian options. Even after leaving for college I was looking at ANG and reserves for flying. Dad pulled me aside one day and said "look, the best thing I could tell you is that you don't want to fly for a living. I do, and I count down every day until I can retire. Get a good job, get an airplane of your own, and fly for yourself." He's also said that flying for a living all but killed his enjoyment and passion for it, until he finished his RV-6. The flying he does outside of work "is the most fun I've ever had, in any airplane", with solo flights during his Navy training a distant second.

    If your daughter wants to fly commercial, is she prepared to spend at least half her nights on the road, sleeping in a hotel room (or worse, flying a redeye)? Is she prepared to have her landings loudly criticized by know-nothing passengers who can barely parallel park? Or better yet, is she prepared to take abuse from passengers for things completely out of her control? Is she prepared to miss holidays, birthdays, and anniversaries? Is she willing to be humiliated every working day by the TSA?

    If she goes corporate/private, is she prepared for extremely demanding passengers with absurd requests and no-notice travel schedules? Is she prepared to fly to middle-of-nowhere airports with almost nowhere to sleep or eat, and be expected to be ready to leave at any time? Is she strong enough to deal with pressure (up to and including "I'll fire you") to fly illegally or in unsafe conditions?

    A high school friend of mine was valedictorian and wound up going to the Air Force Academy. He wanted to fly F-15s in the worst way. But when he graduated and went through the early pilot screening/instruction he found out that he got violently sick from any kind of aerobatics or unusual attitudes. He was washed out of pilot training and is now flying UAVs somewhere. He's miserable.


    LS, I'm not trying to discourage your daughter from flying professionally. But I wanted to share the experiences of friends and family that did so, and which influenced me in the direction of becoming an engineer and flying for myself instead.

    I do know others who love their flying careers. The negative points that drove my dad and others up the wall just rolled off the backs of those who love it. Everyone handles things differently. The trick, I guess, would be making sure that you don't fall in the trap where doing what you love for a living kills your enjoyment of it.
    I reserve the right to be smarter tomorrow than I was yesterday.

  2. Likes Dana, MikePousson, Glider liked this post
  3. #17
    Moderator Dana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    7,567
    Likes (Given)
    313
    Likes (Received)
    2109

    Re: Flying career for daughter

    Quote Originally Posted by gtae07 View Post
    When I was 16 and looking at colleges and careers, I knew what my major was going to be (aerospace engineering) but was convinced I wanted to fly for a living. I was applying to the service academies and looking at civilian options. Even after leaving for college I was looking at ANG and reserves for flying. Dad pulled me aside one day and said "look, the best thing I could tell you is that you don't want to fly for a living. I do, and I count down every day until I can retire. Get a good job, get an airplane of your own, and fly for yourself."
    Sounds like what I could have written... except it wasn't my Dad, but an airline pilot I was talking to at the airport who said more or less the same thing. I had already pretty much decided I didn't want to be an aerial bus driver, anyway. I did come very close to signing on the dotted line to be a naval aviator, but I decided I liked my free and easy lifestyle more. Found I really did like my engineering work, and bought my first plane a few years later.

    Airline flying is not the prestigious high paying job it was back in the day. Only the senior captains are making the really good money.

    Forget the aviation degree programs like ERAU. It'll cost a lot more, the certificate is no better than the one you get from Joe's flying school, and the "aviation degree" is near useless. The airlines require a 4 year degree, but they don't care what it's in; it could be underwater basket weaving for all they care. Better to get a degree in something unrelated, useful, and interesting, in case the flying career doesn't work out for whatever reason.

    Military: Best flight training there is, and it's an honorable profession (even if the politicians sending the troops out aren't always honorable), but the competition is fierce for a very few pilot slots, and if you don't get selected you still have to serve out your commitment.

    Dana

  4. Likes Glider, gtae07 liked this post
  5. #18
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Ontario on the bay
    Posts
    324
    Likes (Given)
    362
    Likes (Received)
    126

    Re: Flying career for daughter

    My nephew started at a flight school at zero time one year out of high school and in 6 months had his commercial ticket with a crop duster certificate. He's added over 600 hours to his log and since got his turbine rating. He's antsy right now because there is no work in the Ag flying business because of the season. All he wants to do is fly. His mom told me recently he's looking at the Air Force as a different career choice but hasn't pulled the trigger because he worried that if he washes out of a flight program, he's stuck for a few years doing something he doesn't want to do.
    He definitely doesn't want anything to do with airline industry. He's 22.

  6. Likes Glider liked this post
  7. #19
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    My Moms basement
    Posts
    654
    Likes (Given)
    49
    Likes (Received)
    418

    Re: Flying career for daughter

    I had a 35 year career in airline flying. After reading some posts I have similar opinions and opinions that are completely opposite of other forum members. I had it a little easier than most as my dad had a pipeline/powerline patrol business and we had a fleet of airplanes and five pilots or more employed. I know at the age of 15 I wanted to fly but then I also had a good season as a hockey player and thought I was going to be a pro hockey player. I'd do it all over again the same way I suppose. Me and my coworkers used to laugh at the "pilot shortage" banner. Usually when we were furloughed. That term will always be used no matter the situation. It sells slots in the airline training academy's. My advice, get a bachelor's degree in a field that is interesting and learn to fly while in college or sooner. Then decide.

  8. Likes BJC, Rockiedog2, Glider, Dana, Vector liked this post
  9. #20
    Registered User blane.c's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    capital district NY
    Posts
    741
    Likes (Given)
    351
    Likes (Received)
    169

    Re: Flying career for daughter

    I support your daughters will to fly. My experience with flying is that she is going to have to be "thick skinned" there are still a lot of "another empty kitchen" and "hen in the cockpit" type comments, and even if the comments are silenced the attitude is still there. That aside there is the backstabbing and clamoring for position, the good jobs are very competitive and you "MUST" maintain an impeccable resume to have even a chance at good pay, lower paying jobs are more plentiful but any thoughts of "the romance of flight" are strictly fantasy. The "joke" at my last employ was that the owner would get you drunk then call the cops after you left the bar, after your dui you couldn't be employed elsewhere (fortunately I was wise to that). Also do not fall for the "what happens in the cockpit stays in the cockpit" BS either, what happens in the cockpit is known (literally) around the world in days at most, in hours if the story is good. Do you want a straight "A" personality flying the plane your family is riding in or do you think someone that got a few "B's" is ok? And if something does happen which person is easier for your legal team to defend in court? We sent a monkey in a space capsule around the world before we sent a human, that is , the flying part is easy.

    I loved my flying experience, and I am sure your daughter will to, but go into it with eyes wide open and a cast iron plate strapped to your butt.

  10. Likes Glider liked this post
  11. #21
    Registered User timberwolf8199's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Grand Rapids area, MI, USA
    Posts
    272
    Likes (Given)
    46
    Likes (Received)
    67

    Re: Flying career for daughter

    I had a young man in my church who made similar comments. I asked him at the time if he was sure that he wanted to be a pilot for his profession or if it would be better to keep it as a hobby. He was determined he did and went to Florida for school. After one semester he was back and had decided commercial piloting wasn't for him. He's now a real estate agent who flies for fun (He and his wife just had a baby girl; named her Piper )
    I was always good in school, enjoyed aviation, and enjoyed working with my hands. I got a degree in aeronautical engineering and loved every minute of it. Today I work as a mechanical engineer, aircraft are a hobby, and I have no regrets.


    Your daughter gets straight A's and said she wants to do something with aviation...that doesn't necessarily mean a job as pilot. Is she mechanical, book smart, creative, etc? What other interests does she have? Find strengths that line up with interests and see where that points. Don't rule out other jobs like A&P or crash investigator (SVSU Steve?) just because they don't require being a pilot. These aren't office jobs yet they are still in aviation. Likewise, if she really enjoys it, maybe it's best not to turn it into a job. Keep it as a sideline and work in a related job/industry doing something you're good at/enjoy.

  12. #22
    Registered User Mark Z's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Granbury, Texas USA 0TX0
    Posts
    369
    Likes (Given)
    104
    Likes (Received)
    139

    Re: Flying career for daughter

    Find a mentor/instructor who likes to share. It's all about hanging around with the right folks who take interest. Success breeds success; she won't have any problems reaching her goals but you have to put yourself in the environment where opportunities knock. If she were close I'd have her solo my Champ by her 16th birthday and furnish the fuel.

  13. #23
    Registered User Rockiedog2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Grenada MS
    Posts
    1,262
    Likes (Given)
    451
    Likes (Received)
    820

    Re: Flying career for daughter

    It's a rocky road; I, like others here, have been there.

    The college degree/military produces the best resume' by far, especially for the majors. At my airline the vast majority of new hires were from that career track. I was fortunate to get accepted into USAF pilot training and actually made it thru w/o much trouble. I had a couple hundred hours and a PP certificate before which is always a big help and recommended if you can swing it. But like already mentioned you gotta "be in the military" to get that resume'...I was young and dumb and excited and actually volunteered for Vietnam the first tour; but didn't have any choice the following two. That's when reality set in. I told my kids to avoid the military at all costs short of going to prison. Why?...cause the wars we got now are micro managed by the politicians outa Washington. And we all know what kinda respect they deserve/get. If we got another world war yeah let's all saddle up and go. But to have your life controlled/threatened by some politician...naw, no way. Ask the guys who are on their 5th/6th/7th deployment. They're missing their kids growing up. So yeah I'm down on the military route, not because I don't respect the military(I definitely do, especially the officers/EM below the staff level) but for the reasons already mentioned. OTOH, if the military life appeals to you, and you don't mind giving up control of your life; sure have at it...it's definitely a respected and honorable profession. Just be sure you got all the info you can get before committing.

    My airline hired a lotta civilian background pilots too...I flew with a number of them who did the aviation degree/pilot training route. They were actually more savvy in the operational environment cause they had been out on their own making the daily decisions of a PIC at some Part 135 or corporate job while the military guys were normally "bound by the decisions of the command post" type thing. The military in my experience tried to eliminate as much PIC judgement as possible with procedure and at my airline PIC judgement trumped all. I would closely investigate the Embry Riddle/Delta State University type schools and if I could afford it and liked what I found out I would favor that route. Then of course you gotta pay your dues starving/instructing/ corporate/commuter/whatever you can get to build time.

    Because aviation as a profession is such an iffy thing, I would go for a degree I could make a living with maybe engineering/accounting etc something you can actually get a job with. That will fill the first square that the majors/military are looking for... a degree. And in the meantime, do whatever aviation related I could to learn and qualify myself while in college, like a PP certificate with the idea of pursuing aviation after the degree. That way we're prepping for whatever eventually works out in the future. There's several ways to go about it it just depends on what the individual decides will work best for him.

    It was mentioned that some don't like the airline life after getting into it and finding out what it's really like. I liked the time I was in the cockpit but that was only a small percentage of the time at work...75-80 hours flight time per month/350-400 hours trip time per month. If you like dead time in hotels over Christmas and disrupted sleep schedules you'll be much happier...I knew every pan handler in downtown Oakland by first name. Not all good by any means...but I was lucky as hell, never a day of furlough, rapid seat progression, coveted company. I wanted out but realized how lucky I was to have it and it was probably the best I could do...so I hung in there and it all worked out. Retired at 58 and been able to do everything I wanted to ever since. That's hard to beat.

    It's a crap shoot but if you wanta fly roll the dice and get to work at it.

  14. Likes MikePousson, Kevin N, Glider liked this post
  15. #24
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Upper midwest in a house
    Posts
    3,069
    Likes (Given)
    306
    Likes (Received)
    981

    Re: Flying career for daughter

    Quote Originally Posted by choppergirl View Post
    Only four careers in aviation are in demand: commercial airline pilots (big time demand), and to a much lesser extent... air traffic controllers, helicopter pilots (any), and AG crop duster pilots.
    What is your source on that? The gov makes forecast about the industry as well as numerous consultants in the private sector and they don't seem to reflect your claim. Or in simple terms, why do I get A&P job solicitations in the mail on a weekly basis? Don't these companies offering huge employment incentives know there is no future in aircraft maintenance? I get aircrew mailings as well, though not nearly at the rate I get A&P offers. BTW, I used to work for an ag operator. I know a little bit about that industry and there ain't no overwhelming demand for ag pilots.

    So a young person wants to be a lawyer. S/he strolls into a glass front law firm and says "where do I sign up for the lawyer apprentice program? I'll need a 4 yr scholarship for a pre law undergrad degree then another 4 yrs of law school." Let me know how that works out. Some careers and occupations actually have prerequisites to entry. Much to the dismay of the entitlement generation, those prerequisites have to be earned.
    “The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible.” - Mark Twain

    “If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$hi+.” ― W.C. Fields

  16. Likes Rockiedog2 liked this post
  17. #25
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    3,964
    Likes (Given)
    1930
    Likes (Received)
    3321

    Re: Flying career for daughter

    My grandson started early, I gave him his first flying lesson at about 10 years old. He was like me, all he ever wanted to do was fly since 5 years old. His is also an Airforce brat. At 15 years old he would spend the summers with my neighbor barnstorming his Stearman over the eastern part of the U.S. He would sell tickets, fuel the airplane, help people get in and out of the airplane. He did that for 3 summers. After high school he enrolled in college for a degree in Aviation and got a job as a line-boy at a large airport. After getting is Private license, different aircraft owners at the airport started asking him to go on trips. Got go over an hundred free hours of turbine time that way from aircraft owners that were also flight instructors. After getting his instructor rating, he was instructing in all of his free time between school and working at the airport. Then he went working full time instructing until he was old enough to take the ATP test. A few days after taking the test an airline called and ask him to fly to NY for an interview. Flew for the airline for about 3 years and didn't like it, was offered a job flying in the flight dept of a large company. Now just turned 30 years old and had 7 type ratings. When he is not flying for the company he is still flight instructing in his free time and loves his job. Do to the people he met in the airshow circuit for those 3 years, he had time in AT-6, P-51, B-25, PBY, etc. Now has time in over 60 different aircraft.

    IF your " want to" is large enough, you will find a way.
    Pops

  18. Likes BobbyZ, Glider liked this post
  19. #26
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cape May NJ USA and Varna Bulgaria
    Posts
    228
    Likes (Given)
    104
    Likes (Received)
    65

    Re: Flying career for daughter

    So far there's been some good advice but the one thing I didnt see is to get her flying ASAP.
    It is the one thing that wont go to waste and the earlier she starts the better off she'll be later on NO MATER WHAT ROUTE SHE TAKES.

    I know it's not cheap but there's options like glider clubs and the like out there that can get her seat time on a budget and I'm pretty sure some of the time counts towards a CPL.

    If done right she could easily have her Instrument rating plus some of the 250 hours needed towards her CPL by her sophomore year of college.
    This way she can also go to a real school instead of a Pilot mill and during the summers she can earn hours.She could instruct or fly banners all summer and build time so that she has that much more than the next guy by the time she graduates.

    I think the one thing we all would agree on is to get flying ASAP.The more hours she gets in the meantime the better off she'll be compared to the next guy later on.I know it takes a lot of time,money and luck but if she's dedicated and pays some dues she could have her CPL around her sophomore year.Then she could have a blast stacking up hours flying banners for the summers(or instructing etc).This way when she graduates she'll have a stack of hours that will separate her from the rest of the pack.

    Now if she decides to go with the military the hours and any ratings will help her there too.

    Last but least is if she ends up going for a different career the things she learns while learning to fly now won't be lost.They will follow her forever and in a very good way.I personally cant think of a better way to teach a young adult personal responsibility and independence.The critical thinking skills and situational awareness that are drilled into our heads while learning to fly tends to help improve our judgment.As a father myself I have to say that no matter how good they've been taught,a few more things to help in this department will never hurt..............Plus it's fun


    Pops beat me to it

  20. Likes gtae07, Mark Z liked this post
  21. #27
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    3,964
    Likes (Given)
    1930
    Likes (Received)
    3321

    Re: Flying career for daughter

    I was married young and had 3 children by the time I was 24 years old. Growing up very poor and marrying young I never had any extra money for flight instruction. I was building and flying model airplanes since I was 8 years old. Stopped by the hobby shop and saw a notice about a meeting to start an EAA chapter. I went to that meeting and met several people. About 2 weeks latter, one of the men that I met called me and ask if I would work on the weekends helping in the ground crew at a large sailplane club ( he was one of the flight instructors in the club). After working for several weeks, I was told that the club was going to pay me for my work by giving me free flight instruction in one of their Super Cubs if I paid for the fuel . I also went with several sailplane owners to contest and worked in the ground crews there. So much fun, I would even pay to go.

    If nothing else, I would go to the nearest small airport and start being an airport bum and ask if I could help wash and wax airplanes with the owners for free. Someone will always take a free hand. Do it as much as possible, someone will feel sorry and start asking you if you want to go flying with them and some if these people will have an instructor rating and ask you to get a log book and start signing you off for the time they let you fly. Where is always a way, just keep on trying.
    Last edited by Pops; December 19th, 2016 at 08:55 PM.
    Pops

  22. Likes Glider liked this post
  23. #28
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    946
    Likes (Given)
    170
    Likes (Received)
    287

    Re: Flying career for daughter

    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyZ View Post
    So far there's been some good advice but the one thing I didnt see is to get her flying ASAP.
    It is the one thing that wont go to waste and the earlier she starts the better off she'll be later on NO MATER WHAT ROUTE SHE TAKES.

    If done right she could easily have her Instrument rating plus some of the 250 hours needed towards her CPL by her sophomore year of college.
    One kid that was doing flight training at the school where I got my private had his CPL before he left for his freshman year. I never heard how it ended up working out for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    Sounds like what I could have written... except it wasn't my Dad, but an airline pilot I was talking to at the airport who said more or less the same thing. I had already pretty much decided I didn't want to be an aerial bus driver, anyway
    For me it was the A&P I was working for as a summer job. Ended up going to school for aeronautical/mechanical engineering and have a blast at work (most days) working on aircraft components.

  24. Likes Glider liked this post
  25. #29
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    US
    Posts
    1,904
    Likes (Given)
    462
    Likes (Received)
    690

    Re: Flying career for daughter

    Some other thoughts:

    - Of a general nature: This article by a professional career advisor makes some insightful points I think most young people can use. It is unconventional, and the typical young person would probably not accept it, but it takes 5 minutes to read and might help a light bulb come on in a few years.
    "Do What You Love. . .and Starve?http://www.martynemko.com/articles/d...-starve_id1380. "
    Two points of many in the piece:
    The irony is that the small percentage of people who do make a living in “do-what-you-love,” “follow-your-passion” careers, are, on average, no happier than people in less sexy jobs. Here’s why. Plenty of “cool careers” sound better than they turn out to be. Actors, for example, spend very little time acting. They spend most of their time trying out, sitting around waiting for their turn at rehearsals or on movie shoots, etc.

    More important, not only do salaries in “cool” careers tend to be low, employers in those fields know they can get away with treating their employees shabbily because zillions of other capable people are panting for the opportunity to work 60 hours a week for $27,521 (with no benefits) rarely getting praise in exchange for the good feeling of knowing they’re playing an infinitesimal role in saving the spotted owl or whatever, even though they may never get closer to an owl than to a pile of accounts receivable statements.
    . . . if your job is mundane, for example, marketing manager for the Western Widget Company, the employer knows there aren’t hundreds of competent people champing at the bit for your job. So, to keep you, the employer is more likely to offer decent working conditions, reasonable work hours, kind treatment, opportunities for learning, and pay you well. Those are the things that—much more than being in a “cool” career-- lead to career contentment.
    - College: It's not necessary to get a four year degree to make a comfortable living, but it helps, and it gives options. Almost every teenager wants every minute of their education to directly apply to their life ("when am I ever going to use this calculus? This is stupid!" "what job would I get where they care if I understand the US Constitution?"). But employers use a college degree as a fast and cheap (to them) way to decide which applicants to consider for jobs that have higher requirements (technical work, writing, jobs requiring independent fact-gathering and analysis, etc). It's just a way to know that the applicant has the perseverance to stick with something rigorous for 4 years, that they are responsible enough to work on their own to get things done, and that they probably have some basic reading and writing skills. A high school diploma used to serve this purpose, but no longer does, and some degrees from some colleges may not either. There are plenty of very smart, motivated folks who never went to college, but they aren't considered for many of the desirable jobs in many companies because folks with college degrees are available. That's just the way it works.

    - If she doesn't want to attend college now, and doesn't want to "sit behind a desk or in a cubicle," and she wants to earn a comfortable living, then she probably wants a skilled trade. Really, that's what most flying jobs are, but because of the perceived excitement of an aviation career (see Nemko's article, above), the pay and working conditions in the flying biz are not attractive for the first decade or two, and the cost of entry is high. She could afford to do it as a hobby instead (much more fun, IMO) if she learned skills in another area that pays better. If only she knew someone who owned a business and could teach her both a trade and how to run such a business. . .gee, that would be tremendous. Such a person would get a motivated and trustworthy person to help expand their business, and she'd get something invaluable every parent wants their child to have--the ability to make it on their own. That would be fantastic . . .
    Last edited by Vigilant1; December 19th, 2016 at 12:19 PM.

  26. Likes Glider liked this post
  27. #30
    Registered User Direct C51's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Bakersfield, CA
    Posts
    38
    Likes (Given)
    1
    Likes (Received)
    12

    Re: Flying career for daughter

    I don't regret that path I took, and would highly suggest something similar. I'll never make $200k a year, but I have about as easy a life as a pilot could get. My path was as follows.

    - Enlist in the Army right after high school as a mechanic or crew chief in Army Aviation.

    - Apply for Warrant Officer Flight Training right away. I was selected with just over 2 years of enlisted time.

    - Excel as an Army aviator earring as many ratings, hours, and as much PIC time as possible. I had over 2000 hours, 1500 PIC, and was an experienced test pilot all in my initial 6 year service obligation.

    - Get out once your service obligation is over.

    - Get a civilian medevac job once you get out.

    My path has some pros and cons. I didn't have to pay for training, pay has always been good, and I've got great experience and training. I'm now 30 and have a well paying flying job in which I'm home every night and don't have to work very hard at all. I never had to try to get by making $25k a year as a CFI. I did have to spend about 10 years in the Army, which means sleeping in tents, deployments, and the general unpleasantness Army life can be. I'm glad to be out, but I don't regret it at all, and wouldn't change a thing.

Similar Threads

  1. My Daughter Just Asked (Insisted) She Help Me With My Plane Project
    By Chris In Marshfield in forum Hangar Flying
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: August 4th, 2016, 07:38 AM
  2. Where are we really at in flying?
    By don january in forum Hangar Flying
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: October 4th, 2015, 08:14 PM
  3. My daughter, the aircraft designer
    By Chris In Marshfield in forum Hangar Flying
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: March 18th, 2015, 02:16 PM
  4. "just flying to work again'....(re titled) spectacular views of flying commuter,sort
    By Aircar in forum Aircraft Design / Aerodynamics / New Technology
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: January 17th, 2014, 11:11 AM
  5. Flying from PA
    By KRG in forum New Member Introductions
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: November 22nd, 2011, 12:20 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •